08-09-2001 01:04									#1
	CIV attributes changing! Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

No more Scientific and Industrial CIV!

	08-09-2001 01:09									#2
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What?

	08-09-2001 01:09									#3
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Yes, they changed China to Militaristic and Industrious.
Not a word from them about it either.

	08-09-2001 01:10									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf What?

http://www.civ3.com/devupdates/abilitiespopup.cfm

	08-09-2001 01:17									#5
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They also changed the Persians from Militaristic/Commercial to Commercial/Scientific.

And moreover, the Germans are now Militaristic/Scientific.

	08-09-2001 01:18									#6
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That's a changing related to the new GA trigger. They changed it this way, so Chinese can get GA by GreatWall solely. Really don't know it's good or not. But after all, they care about our ideas, and we get a preaceful trigger.

	08-09-2001 01:19									#7
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I wonder if they will change the Romans to Scientific then? They are now listed as the same as the Chinese.

	08-09-2001 01:23									#8
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quote: Originally posted by donarumo I wonder if they will change the Romans to Scientific then? They are now listed as the same as the Chinese.

I hope not. Please no! The Romans need to stay as "militaristic" and "industrious".

After all, how many scientific civs are we going to have? They can't all be scientific!!!

	08-09-2001 01:30									#9
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So, now there are three pairs of civs with the same abilities:

- Aztecs and Japanese (Militaristic/Religious)
- Greeks and Persians (Commercial/Scientific)
- Romans and Chinese (Militaristic/Industrious)

And two 'ability-slots' are empty: Militaristic/Commercial (former the Persians) and Scientific/Industrious (former the Chinese).

Surely, there´s a lot of game-balancing going on at Firaxis right now.

	08-09-2001 01:32									#10
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Gramphos - not my problem...

Militaristic/Commercial - None
Militaristic/Expansionist - Zulu
Militaristic/Scientific - Germans
Militaristic/Religious - Aztecs/Japanese
Militaristic/industrious - Romans/Chinese
Commercial/Expansionist - English
Commercial/Scientific - Greek/Persians
Commercial/Religious - Indians
Commercial/Industrious - French
Expansionist/Scientific - Russia
Expansionist/Religious - Iroquois
Expansionist/Industrious - Americans
Scientific/Religious - Babylonians
Scientific/Industrious - None
Religious/Industrious - Egypt

	08-09-2001 01:51									#11
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They haven't updated the description of the Chinese civ in the civ of the week page, though:

>In Civilization III, the Chinese are considered a Scientific and
>Industrious civilization, therefore, they start with Bronze
>Working and Masonry, and have significant bonuses to scientific
>activities pursuits and building activities.

http://www.civ3.com/civoftheweek.cfm?civ=Chinese

	08-09-2001 01:57									#12
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Question :

Do the attributes of a Civ only affect the start-up bonuses of the civ or also affect further gameplay for human players?
For instance, if a civ is set to scientific, does it have a (speed?) advantage in discovering new things?

Grtx

	08-09-2001 02:00									#13
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quote: Originally posted by tuckson Question : Do the attributes of a Civ only affect the start-up bonuses of the civ or also affect further gameplay for human players? For instance, if a civ is set to scientific, does it have a (speed?) advantage in discovering new things? Grtx

You want an answer, do it yourself:
http://www.civ3.com/devupdates/abilitiespopup.cfm

	08-09-2001 02:45									#14
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I dunno, the chinese are scientific and militaristic in my view. If anything, thier top trait is being scientific.


I guess japanese can become militarist / commercial

Romans could be expantionist militrarist.

	08-09-2001 02:45									#15
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quote: Lockstep: Surely, there´s a lot of game-balancing going on at Firaxis right now.

guess so !
this is a good sign. We might pherhaps see more changes soon

	08-09-2001 02:50									#16
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If you don't like the default civ attributes...CHANGE THEM. I don't think we have to accept the default since game balancing implies that everyone is equal. If you want a real challenge, how about changing everyone's attributes to militaristic/expansionist except yours? And if possible, change everyone's trigger to a Golden Age (via wonders or units) to something much earlier (or later?) than yours. Or, you can simply change the attributes to suite your view of history.

	08-09-2001 02:59									#17
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Why do some civs have the same attributes while some combinations are not used? Is it for historical reasons, or play-balancing reasons?

	08-09-2001 03:18									#18
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I'm very glad and relieved they changed Germany to Militaristic/Scientific. In fact, I was planning to do exactly that when I got the game! Partly because I think those two categories better represent the German character, and partly because I thought it was going to cause grumbling if England and Germany had the same attributes!

	08-09-2001 03:37									#19
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I'm pleased with these changes, perhaps they're partly from play testing - it would be silly to find the chinese ahead of everyone else in technology by 1900(very unhistoric[nice new word for unrealistic historical stuff] ).

Very interesting about the wonders as well, but I think they'll need to make it hard to get a golden age with your special unit, sounds too easy compared to building a wonder. (perhaps if they made it you had to capture an enemy city with your special)

BUT does your golden age end if the wonder that triggered it is captured/destroyed? (it should do)

I'd give my girlfriend If I had to to get Sid Meier to give me civ3

	08-09-2001 04:05									#20
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I'm very satisfied with these changes. Besides, at Firaxis they're publicly stating that they'd rather admit they were wrong at first than to ship an unbalanced game. This shows character. Now just rename the chinese "Rider" please.

	08-09-2001 04:31									#21
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i'm glad they fixed the germans, that was thuroughly discussed in another thread and many believed the germans being expansinist was stupid.

how are the chinese militaristic? and why did they go from having only 2 civs the same in abilities to 3? someone said the romans could be militaristic and eexpansionistic. i think that would suit them better than militaristic and industrious. even more so when you realise slaves did so much work in rome while the owners had holidays on literally half the calender.

i hope they do some more tweaking and fix a few things. i want as few civs with the same abilities as possible. because, if not for the abilities the only truly defining difference in the game will be the unique unit.

	08-09-2001 04:35									#22
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i'm glad they fixed the germans, that was thuroughly discussed in another thread and many believed the germans being expansinist was stupid.

how are the chinese militaristic? and why did they go from having only 2 civs with the same in abilities to 3? someone said the romans could be militaristic and expansionistic. i think that would suit them better than militaristic and industrious. even more so when you realise slaves did so much work in rome while the owners had holidays on literally half the calender.

militaristic/industrial and scientific/industrial are unused. surely some civs could fit that?

i hope they do some more tweaking and fix a few things. i want as few civs with the same abilities as possible. because, if not for the abilities the only truly defining difference in the game will be the unique unit.

	08-09-2001 04:42									#23
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how are the chinese militaristic?

i think industious and commercial suits them better

	08-09-2001 04:43									#24
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I doubt that this is even the final version of the Civ Abilities.

	08-09-2001 10:08									#25
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quote: Originally posted by PGM Besides, at Firaxis they're publicly stating that they'd rather admit they were wrong at first than to ship an unbalanced game.

Did I miss something or did Firaxis admit they were wrong?
Have they even acknowledged that the Civ abilities have been changed?

Personally I like the changes, but I think it won't really matter much because the editor should allow the civ abilites to be changed as the player sees fit. I think I remember some discussion about being able to randomize the abilites. That would make things even more interesting.

	08-09-2001 10:36									#26
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quote: Originally posted by ancient how are the chinese militaristic? i think industious and commercial suits them better

Because Chinese had been around for so long , it depends on which point in chinese history you take.

At some point in China's history, you'll fine a fit for all the abilities.
Most chinese Dynasty start out with a coup /Civil war and was Militaristic in the begiinng ,but after they settled down, they all become more "Civil"
eg.

Shang Dyanasty- Religious/Comericial
Qin Dynasty - Miltarisitc/Expanisionist
Early Han-Milltarisitc/Industrious/Expansionist/Scientific /comerical any combination of these at various points )
Later Han-Comerical/Industirous/Scientific
Tang-same as Early Han, but also religeous (2nd Chinese golden Age)
Song-Comerical/Industrious
Yuan-Expansiionist/Militaristic
Ming -Expansionist/Industrious or Comericial/Industrious
Early Qing- Milltarisiic/Industious or Milltarisitc/Expansionist

on the Whole, Chinese are seldom Scientific, but any combination of Religous,comerical ,industrious,Milltaistic and expansionist

	08-09-2001 12:17									#27
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quote: Originally posted by GuangRong on the Whole, Chinese are seldom Scientific,

What?

	08-09-2001 16:48									#28
	Re: CIV attributes changing! Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by sekong No more Scientific and Industrial CIV!

Oh goodie... How the hell am I now gonna play with a Scientific and Industrial (my favourite bonuses) civilization when there isn't a single one anymore in the list...

	08-09-2001 16:56									#29
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quote: Originally posted by GuangRong on the Whole, Chinese are seldom Scientific

*comes to a state of deep shock and bewilderment*

erm...

HELLO!!!

Haven't you forgotten about gun-powder, writting, chinese takeaways ( ), and all those other things (which I can't think of at the moment)?

	08-09-2001 18:49									#30
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One advantage of having the Persians as "scientific" and "commercial" is that they now have the same attributes as the Greeks which sets up a really potential rivalry! Both the Persians and the Greeks are "commercial" and "scientific" but the Persians get a superior attack unit whereas the Greeks get a superior defensive unit. This sets up a great potential science rivalry between the 2!