08-09-2001 02:13									#1
	China turned from scientific to militaristic? Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

What gives that? Why did they change Chinese from scientific to militaristic? What gives? China is not even militaristic! God damn, is that how Firaxis treat a great nation which gave the world, gunpowder, paper, compass, among millions other important inventions?!

Oh well, guess Firaxis want Chinese players to kick ass instead of pursuing knowledge.

	08-09-2001 02:22									#2
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It is because China should be able to start their Golden age by building the Great Wall.

	08-09-2001 02:36									#3
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If you don't like those attributes, then you can change them back. Or if you don't like what triggers a civ's Golden Age, simply change it. I certainly wouldn't get all bent out of shape with the default attributes and triggers.

	08-09-2001 03:00									#4
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Orthodox Confucianists(pacifist folks) only got the upper hand in the late Chinese empires. China was pretty militaristic from its beginning all the way to the Song Dynasty. That actually made up 2500 years of its 3500 years written history.

If China had not been militaristic and expansionistic to a certain degree, they wouldn't have conquered and assimilated so many territories.

	08-09-2001 03:38									#5
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I can't believe this!!!
Firaxis is crazy!!!

	08-09-2001 05:18									#6
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quote: If China had not been militaristic and expansionistic to a certain degree, they wouldn't have conquered and assimilated so many territories.

That's true, but still I feel China is much more scientific than it's militaristic

	08-09-2001 06:55									#7
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Then change the Chinese to Scientific. It will read the txt file and act accordingly. If you are unsure how to do that, just wait, I and probably many others will help. The beauty of this whole thing is that we can make each civ the way we want it (for whatever reasons). Don't be stuck on what Firaxis chooses for the attributes (or even the unique unit), they are just one of many, many possibilities you chose.

	08-09-2001 07:24									#8
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Its pretty easy to see why China has been changed to militaristic, and it has little to do with playbalancing. I think when they decided to make wonder completion be a trigger for Golden Ages (great idea, by the way), they had to work back from what kind of wonder it was. The Chinese happen to have two militaristic wonders in the game: Art of War and Great Wall. So to encourage the Chinese player to build these, they made the civ militaristic. Them's the breaks.

Its hard to argue with Art of War, but with Great Wall, one could make the argument that its precisely the non-militaristic civ that would build a great wall so they can keep other civs from invading, and thus ignore war as much as possible. So it could be seen as one of the least militaristic wonders out there.

Probably too late for that though - its amazing they actually listened to us here once and changed the Golden Age feature somewhat.

By the way, I find it interesting that Sun Tzu's War Academy appears to be split in two for Civ3. Once as the Art of War major wonder, and once as the War Academy small wonder. Good idea if you ask me, since Sun Tzu didn't actually have a war academy, but did write a very influential book.

	08-09-2001 07:48									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan I think when they decided to make wonder completion be a trigger for Golden Ages (great idea, by the way)

Our friend, yin, thinks that's a silly idea, if I read it correctly. Given that everything in Civ should be simple, yet elegant, it will be fun to see how this great idea is implemented and how we can alter it to provide variety.

	08-09-2001 14:29									#10
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Mmmh - I think it's a good idea (Wonders starting GA).
I liked Chinese being Scientific/Industrious but well... perhaps we should ask someone
living in China!? Anyone out there?
They were quite militaristic but western stereotype is the philosophical China.

Arent

	08-09-2001 22:30									#11
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Transcend,

"China was pretty militaristic from its beginning all the way to the Song Dynasty."

Not true. I would say long stretches of peace were interrupted by short bursts of wars and conquest. I do not believe the Chinese culture was predisposed toward the application of force. Looking up militaristic here I found neither of the definitions fit overall. Admittedly some emperors were like that, but most weren't.

Actually, commerical is the best fit. Consider that Qin Shihuang was put into place more or less by a wealthy merchant, commerce took root very early. Scientific is still a better fit than militaristic, as the Chinese did come up with large numbers of inventions and discoveries, including the first recorded obsevation of a supernova.

Last edited by Urban Ranger on 08-09-2001 at 22:35

	08-09-2001 22:59									#12
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The Chinese militaristic? That's a joke...

	09-09-2001 05:19									#13
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quote: Originally posted by Urban Ranger Not true. I would say long stretches of peace were interrupted by short bursts of wars and conquest. I do not believe the Chinese culture was predisposed toward the application of force. Looking up militaristic here I found neither of the definitions fit overall. Admittedly some emperors were like that, but most weren't.

I don't mean that militaristic is the right choice to describe China. But I want to point out that China had not been peaceful either during most of its history, as was thought by many westerners.

	09-09-2001 08:01									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Transcend I don't mean that militaristic is the right choice to describe China. But I want to point out that China had not been peaceful either during most of its history, as was thought by many westerners.

Agreed. My contention was though just because a large part of Chinese history was about turmoil doesn't mean the people themselves were predisposed in that direction.

	10-09-2001 04:40									#15
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I like the change. Also, the powerful Rider fits a militaristic civ well. But obviously, the UU needs a new name.

	10-09-2001 09:15									#16
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quote: Originally posted by PGM I like the change. Also, the powerful Rider fits a militaristic civ well. But obviously, the UU needs a new name.

SU's appear later in the game are more powerful than earlier ones. Will the F-15 make the US a militaristic culture?

	11-09-2001 11:39									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan Its hard to argue with Art of War, but with Great Wall, one could make the argument that its precisely the non-militaristic civ that would build a great wall so they can keep other civs from invading, and thus ignore war as much as possible. So it could be seen as one of the least militaristic wonders out there.

the basic principle of "Art of War" was not how to kill your enemies and win the war, but is how to win the war without sending army to the battlefield.

Here is what Sun Tze said : "make you country strong in strategy(economy and politic) so that no one want to be your enemy, that is the best way.
If the best way are not able to be achieved, try to solve the conflict, and win it in a diplomatic way. That is the second best way. If both are not possible, then send your army to the battlefield. This is the worst way. You should avoid it if you can."

I think, if it were Sun Tze who play the civ game, he will choose a commercial+industrious civ(assume that he had no idea about science), instead of a militaristic+industrious one. He will focus on domestic affairs, try to make his country rich and productive, and in the meanwhile he will keep a strong force to defense the border. When it's time to take over enemy's cities, he will use diplomat of spy to bribe first, when this fail then use the force.

I don't think Chinese should be categorized as militaristic in this sense.

	11-09-2001 12:38									#18
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There are a few reasons that I think Chinese should not be a militaristic civ.
1. most of the time, in history of Chinese, warrior were never be the ruling class in society, it were the literate person who administrate the country.
2. There is a proverb is China : "good man never go to army". Why? because good man should learn hard and pass the examination and become an officer. Only those whose parent are unable to let their children have education will let their boy go to army.
3. There are two period in history of China when the territory expand(Han and Tang dynasty), but the expansion were following the trade road. Commercial or expansionist
are more suitable.
4. Even the communist China today take the economy growth as the first goal.

I think Chinese is more(scientific, industrious, commercial, expansionist) than
(militaristic, religious)

	11-09-2001 14:30									#19
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lihb, my opinion of Chinese civ attributes differs from you.
(edited: After I write the message, I find that my opinion to be nearly the same as yours! )

There is no doubt that Chinese had made much discovery in science and had thriving commerce activities. However,
do you remember the Chinese ranking of 'Scholar, Farmer, Craftsman, Merchant'?

I don't know why China can still advance in the past with our emphasis on literary scholars.

If we base on acheivments to assign civ attributes, China may be commercial, scientific, and industrious.

China rarely if ever seeked to expand her territory. She may want to get more vassals but nearly never desired to directly rule over them.

I don't have have much studies on military aspects of China but I am quite sure that China valued literary achievments more than military.

Chinese emperors were usually treated as appointees by gods to rule over the world but we did not do as much as the Egyptians or Aztecs to honor the gods.

The closest attributes that applied will be scientific and industrious. As writing can be considered as a scientific advance , Chinese can be considered as scientific.
To account for the vast production capability pre-industrial era, I choose industrious as the other attribute.

For the commercial attributes, China usually imported only luxury goods from 'barbarians' for a long time. We just did not feel the need for trading for scarce resource.

	12-09-2001 09:53									#20
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos It is because China should be able to start their Golden age by building the Great Wall.

I have an ideal. Why don't make the wonders that trigger the golden age be
independent of the civ attributes?
Such that Chinese don't have to be a militaristic+industrious civ, and
still can have their golden by building a militaristic+industrious wonder.

For example, every civ have a list of wonder which can trigger golden age.
And the list is build base on two rule:
1. The civ that actually build this wonder must have this wonder in their
list.
2. The number of wonder in different era
in the lists is nearly to be same for every civ.

So, Chinese will have great wall, art of war,
grand canal plus some others in their list.
and American will have Hover Damn, Seti, Apollo, Manhattan plus some other
in their list.
Is doesn't matter if this civ fit the wonder attributes. As long as the
civ build them, they get a golden age or half golden age.

In this way a civ don't have to have a attribute that not fit
them(militaristic for Chinese, for example) to make the wonder that they
actually build in real history to be their golden age wonder(great wall
for Chinese, for example).

-----------------------------
may those death rest in peace.......

	12-09-2001 13:04									#21
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I agreed that Chinese is no doubt industrious, however the other ability can be any of the others, it depends on which point in China's history you take. E.g

Shang- Comerical/industrious
Zhou -Industrious/religious
Qin - Militristic/Industrious/Expansionist?
Former Han- Miltaristic/expansionist
Later Han-Comercial/Industrious/expansionist?


Even within a single Dynasty, there's a diffrence, when it was just founded, or during its decline .

Most dynasties (except the Sung) starts out Militaristic/?? . but after settling down., they all become Comercial/ ??

	13-09-2001 15:06									#22
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How's Zhou religious? They might be somewhat superstitious, but there was never any organised native Chinese religion.

The most militaristic periods were when the country were split, such as the Three Kingdoms period or the Warring States period. Overall though Imperial China was not militaristic at all.


lihb,

"I have an ideal. Why don't make the wonders that trigger the golden age be
independent of the civ attributes?"

That's a good idea.

	14-09-2001 06:46									#23
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I don't know about the past, but lately China has been building one kick-butt military force. . .

	14-09-2001 10:57									#24
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quote: Originally posted by Leonidas I don't know about the past, but lately China has been building one kick-butt military force. . .

base on this, US and Russia should be more militaristic than China.
i think, from the way they use the military force in their history, include present, expansionist is a better word to describe chinese, contrary to WWII German, WWII Japanese and Genkis Khan Mongol.

	14-09-2001 19:38									#25
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lihb: I was just joking about China - I guess Firaxis has been reading too many newspapers. . .

	19-09-2001 11:19									#26
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I feel uneasy about this.
If I think of China I think of peaceful gardens with some Confucius-like philosoph in -
I don't think of Mao or dictatorship - and they will get back to the peaceful times some day in the future! *grmbl*
Give them scientific-industrious and make Persians militaristic/commercial thus we have all combinations.

Arent

	20-09-2001 10:15									#27
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I don't think Firaxis is going to fix it now, since it's too much of a hassle.

I still think lihb's idea of separating civ-specific ability from wonders is a good one.

	21-09-2001 05:40									#28
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It was probably changed to militaristic for game-balance reasons. Perhaps they thought scientific/industrious was too powerful. I know I was going to play them in my first game, but now I don't know.

	21-09-2001 17:36									#29
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CHINA did NOT invent Gunpowder! They invented Powder for Fireworks!

	21-09-2001 17:38									#30
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And Urban Ranger- Commercial might be good, but remember that China shut themselves away from the world after about 1500... If one would consider the ancient ages commerical may be good- but I think Scientific-Expansion would be best