08-09-2001 06:11									#1
	This Week's Reasons to WAIT to Buy Civ 3: Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Well, I am out of exile. I am here to try in vein to keep many, many good people from spending more on a game than the game deserves. First let me make something clear:

Civ 3 will EVENTUALLY be a great game. Once the first few patches, MP and good mods/scenarios are all in place, Civ3 could well be awesome. But I imagine that won't happen until about May-March of 2002. So the question you should ask yourselves:

Do I want to pay FULL PRICE for a Civ3 in October that has various infuriating bugs, unbalanced gameplay, and lack of MP?

Or would you rather not want to save some bad impressions and irritating waits for patches and promised features, all the while saving money AND sending a message to Infogrames that this kind of release strategy is a horrid one?

I know, I know. Most of us here are game junkies and will buy this thing at the first chance, believing that the problems won't be that bad. I hope you are right, but here are some reasons I think you will be disappointed by Civ 3 out of the box:

Civ3 with live and die by how well it is balanced, debugged and offers a full feature set out of the box. So far, some concerns (notice that most of these center on the 'unique civ' approach, which I think Firaxis found much harder to implement than it ever imagined...they should have consulted Ensemble Studios, but that is another matter):

** Things potentially as influential as GAs are still being radically fiddled with a few weeks before the game goes gold. How can the game AI be properly written to handle these kinds of changes in so short a time?

** Civ attributes are being fiddled with weeks before the game goes gold. How can the game AI be properly written to handle these kinds of changes in so short a time?

** Unique units seem somewhat quirky out ill-chosen. Don't be shocked if we see even THOSE being changed right up to the last minute.

** There will be no demo. (!!!???)

** MP may well come out many months from now and we might have to pay for it. (!!!???)

Now, I realize that all games get tweaked even the minute before the master is sent to duplication (and thus some horrid bugs 'strangely' get left in as well), those things above indicate to me an overall pattern:

Firaxis is pressed for time and has yet to feel really satisified with this entire unique civ concept so is still trying out stuff as we speak. And not releasing a demo and possibly even MP only further argues 1) lack of time and 2) lack of confidence in the game as it stands. I say this with such confidence because the SMAC demo was a huge success for them and because to repeat past MP debacles must come only under the pressure of something decidedly 'not good.'

Yes, customizing could rectify many, many problems. But out of the box, I predict BIG problems. Thus, IF I decide to buy Civ3, it will only be once its price has dropped significantly in March or May and once MP, modding and the first significant patches are in place.

I have been an unpaid beta tester too many times, thank you.

	08-09-2001 06:18									#2
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Sorry I have pre-order the game. Both boxes. I hope all goes well with the game. I will let you know.

	08-09-2001 06:18									#3
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Yin, et al.:

Those are all valid concerns. As an Apple Macintosh owner, all I can say is that I'm counting on you Windows users to catch all the bugs before Macsoft finishes its port of Civ III to our platform.

CYBERAmazon

	08-09-2001 06:41									#4
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You make a point, bugs are likely to appear, no doubt. But if they're about GAs and unique units, you can just turn them off in the options, wait for the patch, and the fun will be almost the same (better than Civ2 at least, which I'm still playing often enough, eager with anticipation). After all, how hard is it to download a patch (assuming that they'll be needed at all) ?.

I agree about the price issue, Civ3 will come out a bit pricey I'm sure, but I just can't wait anymore. I'd buy the beta right now if I could.

But hey, while you wait until March-May next year (that's 5-7 months after release) for the price to come down and patches to be uploaded, those of us who will buy the game next month will keep you posted on how much fun we've been having (or not) with it for the past months.

	08-09-2001 06:43									#5
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In the past few weeks Civ has looked very interesting (you could tell by Yin's decreasin pessimism). With this discovery that MP may not come with the "original" Civ3 then things start to swing the other way. If MP doesn't come with Civ3 I might not ever buy Civ3. The main reason for that is my principles and the second is my fear that Firaxis is scrambling and unprepared to release this game in the Fall. Just go look at some of Yin's examples. If MP does come with Civ3 I am willing to take a chance on the given examples. The given examples are much less likely if Firaxis proves that they are prepared to release MP. If MP had enough tmie to get done then I'm sure SP is more than efficient (great) without any patches. I guess at this point the including of MP with the "original" Civ3 will be my determing on factor of when/if I'll buy Civ3.

	08-09-2001 06:47									#6
	Full PM-box? Change here!

its fine to fiddle with the civ attributes a couple weeks before. I assume that the ai is done. The civ specific abilities are tweakable because they are entirely editable and independent of the ai.

	08-09-2001 06:49									#7
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Sigh, might have to start calling you "Yin, the Broken Record".

quote: ** Things potentially as influential as GAs are still being radically fiddled with a few weeks before the game goes gold. How can the game AI be properly written to handle these kinds of changes in so short a time?

You assume that an AI can be properly written in the first place. I expect the AI to be serviceable (which would make it far better than Civ2 and you still hear of thousands of folks still playing Civ2, even with its AI). While I agreed with you on having a smaller number of unique civs (as oppose to 16-32-64 of which most of them are the same), only through the use of events, txt file modifications and handicaps can one make the AI challenging for a deity player. So GAs being fiddled with now (if you assume that) can only be looked on as another degree of customization.

I will make Civ3 in my image and they will give me the tools to do so. I don't want Civ3 in your image and others certainly wouldn't want Civ3 in mine.

quote: ** Civ attributes are being fiddled with weeks before the game goes gold. How can the game AI be properly written to handle these kinds of changes in so short a time?

And from Day 1, they will be fiddled with even more. What difference does it make if I change the Chinese to expansionist or if Firaxis does it? The AI will read the rules.txt file and act accordingly within a set of parameters. Why would you (or another others) want an AI to be so rigid that it becomes predictable??? In other words, you want the Chinese to act and react the same way each and every game?!? That's ludicrous. In some games, I may want the AI civs to ALL act in one way (e.g., expansionistic) or I may want a variety. And we are not even talking about scenarios (which, imo, is far, far more important than the main game), where everything will be thrown out (terrain, rules.txt, tech tree, units, etc.) and rebuilt according to the scenario objectives.

quote: ** Unique units seem somewhat quirky out ill-chosen. Don't be shocked if we see even THOSE being changed right up to the last minute.

Fine, I'll keep on changing the unique unit to something else. I don't want to play the main game of Civ3 and see the same unique units from the same civ acting the same way each time. That's not replayability.

quote: ** There will be no demo. (!!!???)

I couldn't care less but that's just my opinion since I very rarely bother with demos.

quote: ** MP may well come out many months from now and we might have to pay for it. (!!!???)

Wouldn't you rather have a product that went through its own development and testing cycle instead of being piggy-backed on (or just thrown in with) SP??? Separating out MP from SP versions means the potential of both products being better without one causing problems (or conflicting with) the other.

Summary:

I am coming from the viewpoint (and bias) that 90+% of the games that I will be playing with Civ3 will be scenarios and unique challenges that we will be coming up with in the Civ3-Strategy forum. The Civ3 main game will get old at some time in the near future and that is to be expected. It's the scenarios and challenges that kept Civ2 alive for years and Civ3 wouldn't be any difference. So all of this hand-wringing and braying about the fiddling of the main game of Civ3 just seems stupid to me because you haven't seen anything yet!

Steve
The Proverbial Thorn in Yin's Side

	08-09-2001 07:03									#8
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We never heard from Firaxis that there wasn't an analogous peaceful GA trigger.

They have been extremely tightlipped on many features.

It is Yin's opinion that the peaceful trigger has been hastily thrown in to the game, creating possible balance issues.

It is my opinion that it has always been there. They just neglected to tell us about it.

	08-09-2001 07:18									#9
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HawaiiFive-O: That is possible. I hope you are right. Once again, why has Firaxis allowed these impressions to begin with?

Steve: I understand your point, but I think you are in the minority. Most people want outstanding SP and MP out of the box without having to rely on other fans to make the game challenging and fun. So: "You assume that an AI can be properly written in the first place." Yes, I do.

EDITED: Steve, what you are really asking for is a Civ 3 Construction Set and not Civ3 the awesome SP/MP experience. While I understand you, Firaxis is certainly capable and we certainly deserve more than that.

Last edited by yin26 on 08-09-2001 at 07:31

	08-09-2001 07:19									#10
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Joseph: I eagerly await the After Action Reports.

	08-09-2001 07:25									#11
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Umm...

And then I reread the Developer's Update that introduced the concept of the GA.

"Golden ages only occur once, last twenty game turns, and are triggered when any one of your civ-specific units wins its first combat against another civ. "

Gosh, you'd think they'd mention the peaceful trigger at that time too, wouldn't you?

I'm no longer so sure the Firaxis had the peaceful trigger in there all along...

Too bad, because I really want to believe in them and Civ3.

	08-09-2001 07:33									#12
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

HawaiiFive-O: Yes, that is how I drew my conclusion. To make things worse, that trigger for a GA is simply too silly for words to begin with...

	08-09-2001 07:40									#13
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id rather buy a unfinished civ than wait almost a year to buy a finished one..


have fun doing nothing..

	08-09-2001 07:44									#14
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Ok, I'll bite (and I may regret doing this), given that a Civ game has units with certain attributes, civs with certain attributes, terrain variables, wonders and improvements, along with a resource-based economy, how would you construct a simple Golden Age trigger? We already got elite units, as well as the combination of wonders and improvements affecting a trigger. What else would be as simple. Remember it has to fit into the general scheme of the Civ god-game model (in other words, you can't construct a new model, just use what you are given). Or do you think that simple and elegance = silly since you have always advocated a revolutionary, complex game?

	08-09-2001 07:46									#15
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LOL! Yes, because ALL I have in life is Civ3. If I don't find a great game to keep me busy during that time (there are a few other games than Civ, so I hear), I'll do what I really should be doing: Perfecting my Korean skills and continuing to teach myself Chinese characters.

Frustration free and with a little more money in my pocket.

	08-09-2001 07:52									#16
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quote: Or do you think that simple and elegance = silly since you have always advocated a revolutionary, complex game?

On the contrary, I believe the GA should be simple and elegant. But it was introduced to us first as trigged by your unique unit winning in battle. I think we all agree that's a rather short-sighted way to do it: 1) Why would that victory somehow symbolize or push your entire civ to a GA and 2) Aren't there better measures we could use, as has been discussed? A certain degree of economic/cultural development, etc., would be a good, simple, elegant and far more reasonable and challenging trigger for the GA.

The fact that they are making the triggers better is great. The fact that these changes are coming weeks before duplication and Firaxis has an Infogrames gun to their heads is unsettling. Will Firaxis be able to fix these issues post-release should they need to?

Of course. But I won't pay full-price for a game released in that condition. Infogrames doesn't deserve it, and, quite frankly, unless this release date was sprung on Firaxis, they should have planned better.

	08-09-2001 07:53									#17
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There will be some bugs and numerous patches, for sure. But I'm still confident the main SP campaign will be highly playable and enjoyable even before the first patch. After all, the game is not too innovative : it's a conservative threshold , an upgraded Civ2 with enhanced graphics et all.

Just see what they're doing with the MoO series ( MoO3 ), it's quite the contrary. I'm far more concerned about the AI in this case...

	08-09-2001 07:54									#18
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Here, here Ancient.

Yin - why the constant assault? We know you're a "the cup's half-empty" kind of guy, but why try to spike CivIII's sales? If you want to ensure that Firaxis doesn't get the coin to finish MP keep up the trash talk. Not that I think anyone will not buy just 'cause you say so, but if you were successful the game wouldn't open big, Infogrames will figure Sid is old news and turn off the pipe. The glass being completely empty won't do much for any of us.

	08-09-2001 07:58									#19
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"keep up the trash talk"

1) Show me one thing that isn't a valid concern backed by valid evidence.
2) I have said the game will EVENTUALLY be great.

Therefore, this is not 'trash talk.'

"The glass being completely empty won't do much for any of us."

But denying the glass is leaking won't do much good, either.

	08-09-2001 07:59									#20
	Re: This Week's Reasons to WAIT to Buy Civ 3: Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

First of all, let me state that it is indeed good to see you offically out of exile Yin.
But I must ask, what is 40-80 dollars (depending on whether you want the collectors edition or no) in the grand scheme of things for what, despite possible shortcomings, will almost certainly be the greatest game of all time? It is true the absence of multi-player out of the box is puzzling and the lack of a demo is a big letdown, but we must remember all of the things that Civ 3 does have going for it. A unique culture system, an intricate resource system, a number of "rise and fall of empire" features, overall superior game balance and AI. Of course, I have never seen the AI in action, but i would wager any ammount of money that it is at least quite a bit superior to the Civ 2 AI. And surely you wouldn't hesitate to buy Civ 2 if you haven't before or doubt it's excellence?
I understand your need to send a message to game makers for releasing what is potentially a unfinished game (but then again, it could be virtually completely finished by the time it's released, we won't know until then), but this is Civ 3 for pete's sake! This is legendary stuff, and that should override any personal vendetta against corrupt game companies. This isn't just any game here, it's SID MEIER's CIVILIZATION 3! There is a time for protest, but let's put that behind us for this one magical game. I ask you Yin to join the majority of us and get Civ 3 this fall. I ask only because I know what a valuable member of the communtity you are and how much you would add, sharing the same Civ 3 experience as the rest of us. Imagine, sharing the experiences of building your first army, or how the evil Persians exploited some nuances in the game you were unaware of and captured your capital or how the new tech tree is throwing your old strategies completely out of wack. These are priceless memories Yin! All for a price less than i have spent on some dinners.
And If the rest of my arguement is meaningless to you, then do it for Mother Korea!

	08-09-2001 08:02									#21
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Hmmm ... does "trash talk" have to be unfounded to be "trash talk"?

Anyway - you didn't answer the question. Why do you feel the need to stop others from spending their money? Isn't it enough to just not spend your own?

	08-09-2001 08:04									#22
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Fair enough, yin, I'll learn how to create a scenario to where Golden Ages are triggered based on certain economic/cultural conditions.

BTW, the glass is not leaking, you're just looking at the wrong glass.

	08-09-2001 08:05									#23
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monk: Don't forget the different modes of winning, which was rated very high in the EC3 List.

	08-09-2001 08:06									#24
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Monkspider: LOL! That was a great post, thanks.

quote: I must ask, what is 40-80 dollars (depending on whether you want the collectors edition or no) in the grand scheme of things

.

For me, it's about TIME not money. As you know, I'd happily invest lots of time, but I have a sort of principle in mind that developers and producers should avoid sending us games in such a manner and casually expecting us to pay full-price.

And it's about not wanting to waste time being frustrated by poor communication with Firaxis and hoping we get the patches we need, etc. Like I said, I'd rather buy the polished Civ 3 months from now and save myself a lot of needless hassle (and I save a few bucks, but that's more about 'Teaching the Man a lesson' LOL!).

However, it is awfully hard for me not to join in on release day. As a gamer, I'm a kind of Pavlovian Dog...ring the bell and I salivate. Unforunately, the feeding tube sown in my backside has begun to itch and I'm looking for better alternatives.

	08-09-2001 08:08									#25
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This is true, thanks steve, plus I'm sure there are finer game elements that can't be experienced or described by a simple preview.

	08-09-2001 08:08									#26
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quote: Why do you feel the need to stop others from spending their money? Isn't it enough to just not spend your own?

I didn't ask anybody not to spend money. I asked them to consider how there money and time might be better spent given the indications we have so far of the game's development.

Am I not allowed to present people with something to consider? I thought this was a forum...

As for 'unfounded,' make an argument not a statement.

	08-09-2001 08:15									#27
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"However, it is awfully hard for me not to join in on release day. As a gamer, I'm a kind of Pavlovian Dog...ring the bell and I salivate. Unforunately, the feeding tube sown in my backside has begun to itch and I'm looking for better alternatives."
LOL

Although I would still argue that for just this one specific game protests should be put aside, and the game community should form an egalitarian celebration of the finer things in life. Your point is well taken of course. I shall be looking forward to your active presence in the Civ 3 community, and I have a sneaking hunch that an army of excited posters come this October may have you seeing things my way.

	08-09-2001 08:18									#28
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 I asked them to consider how there money and time might be better spent given the indications we have so far of the game's development.

Yeah, like wasting too much time on leader and unit animations.

	08-09-2001 08:22									#29
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 As for 'unfounded,' make an argument not a statement.

Forums are for statements, too.

I didn't say your reasons for being leery are unfounded. I just don't think they need to be unfounded to fall into the category of "trash talk". In sports, TT are words said to throw someone off their game or make them doubt. If they are well founded, so much the better.

As for not telling anyone to not spend their money - the title of the thread says it all.

Unfortunately, games are becoming a lot like movies, if they don't open big the publishers seem unwilling to throw follow up dollars at them. So your advice to delay purchase might be good on the micro level, if too many people take your advice there won't be an update.

But, as I said, I don't think there is much chance of that.

	08-09-2001 08:22									#30
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quote: ...like wasting too much time on leader and unit animations...

I'm not sure if you are being sarcastic, but I actually do think those things were a waste of time but 1) lots of people like that kind of eye-candy, and I suppose it brings in new players and 2) Markos will run in here telling us that artists having nothing to do with design and programming.

I wonder how long Firaxis has known about this October / end of 2001 deadline?