08-09-2001 07:58									#1
	Can Golden Ages be easily prevented? Inflate your Upload Space

quote: "If the attributes of the Wonders you've completed match your Civ's strengths, you will trigger a Golden Age. For example, the Chinese are "Militaristic" and "Industrious". If they build The Art of War and Hoover Dam, this satisfies both strengths and a Golden Age would begin. A far better tact for the Chinese would be to build the Great Wall, which satisfies both strengths at once and would immediately trigger a Chinese Golden Age upon completion."

I would assume from reading this that there are a set of Wonders for each attribute that applies towards the Golden Age trigger. What if, as American, build the Art of War and Hoover Dam and Great Wall (easily done in most Civ2 games), does that mean that the Chinese cannot ever have a Golden Age (assuming that they don't get it through there elite units)? Or does it really matter? The Chinese get a Golden Age for 20 turns, big deal, I'll still clobber them eventually. While I think that having a peaceful trigger is a great idea (and Wonders make sense), it would be so very easy to prevent. So that leaves a military trigger for a Golden Age which would be much harder to prevent.

	08-09-2001 08:14									#2
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The wonders they mentioned are just examples, not your only choice. Say the Greeks wanted a peaceful GA. They can build the Colossus (Commercial) and Issac Newton's College (Scientific) and they get their golden age. Oops, Colossus already taken? Well build Adam Smith's Trading Co. and you still get your GA.

	08-09-2001 08:25									#3
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But there are only 12 Great Wonders and 6 civ attributes. That means 1-3 Wonders per attribute. Sounds easily preventable.

	08-09-2001 09:04									#4
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There are also the small wonders which will be able to trigger Golden Ages as well. You can't block a civ from building a small wonder. Anyone can build them regardless of whether someone else has already built them.

	08-09-2001 09:10									#5
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True about the small wonders.....

Are there only 12 big wonders now? I dont like that. I liked my 28 (if i counted wrong its cuz im tired) from civ2, but the small wonders might make up for it....

	08-09-2001 14:00									#6
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quote: Originally posted by jsw363 There are also the small wonders which will be able to trigger Golden Ages as well.

Well, thats what I thought - but now Im not so sure any more. The thing is if also small wonders is able to trigger Golden Age, then its rather hard to avoid having GA's early on, since they are playstyle-specific and non-exclusive, and the fact that one always want to build any small wonder as soon as available. Given to that; GA's seems to be triggered automatically beyond player-control, as soon as the GA-requirements are fulfilled.

I agree that with 12 great wonders and 6 attributes (= only 1-3 exclusive great wonders per attribute), it seems very easy to prevent/ be prevented from ever using this trigger.

	08-09-2001 15:25									#7
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it has been mentioned in "Peaceful Golden Age has been implemented!" that only Great have attributes, and you need the attributes to trigger the golden age, so only Great Wonders can trigger GA
That also means a peaceful golden age can be prevented.

	08-09-2001 16:09									#8
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I think some of the people need a better explanation and puting "peaceful" GA will not get into the. If you can and been prevented peacful GA you can still do it with your UU.

	08-09-2001 16:10									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Lemmy That also means a peaceful golden age can be prevented.

So if I find peaceful GA prevented, playing as the americans and striving peacefully for the diplomatic victory-condition, I must nevertheless take my US civ-specific modern tank (or whatever), then go out in order to find & unprovokally kill a foreign combat-unit? Damage my changes for diplomatic victory - all just in order to trigger that damn golden age?

	08-09-2001 16:20									#10
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If you have good diplomatic relations, you might be able to get your partners to join you on a militaristic strike on some other civ. This wouldn't damage your reputation, perhaps even the contrary, and you would get your golden age. After all, isn't this what some advanced countries do on modern times, they provoke war to spice up their economy.

	08-09-2001 16:29									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf So if I find peaceful GA prevented, playing as the americans and striving peacefully for the diplomatic victory-condition, I must nevertheless take my US civ-specific modern tank (or whatever), then go out in order to find & unprovokally kill a foreign combat-unit? Damage my changes for diplomatic victory - all just in order to trigger that damn golden age?

People here are usually moaning about how unchallenging it is, surely its a good thing if you need to stay one step ahead of the AI to get your peaceful golden age? If you fail to achieve the peaceful golden age, and you don't want to start a war, then you can try and win without the golden age, it's not that much of a tradegy.

It's really no different to the race for wonders themselves, if the AI beats you to a wonder, that's just your failing and you work around it. If an AI beats you to all your golden age wonders, that's your failing and you work around it.

	08-09-2001 16:36									#12
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quote: Originally posted by PGM If you have good diplomatic relations, you might be able to get your partners to join you on a militaristic strike on some other civ. This wouldn't damage your reputation, perhaps even the contrary, and you would get your golden age. After all, isn't this what some advanced countries do on modern times, they provoke war to spice up their economy.

Well, thats certainly an intriguing & challenging option.

But I think you miss my point - what if I want to trigger Golden Age without starting any wars? If the wonder-trigger is blocked, I guess I am more or less forced to go out and kill a foreign unit? If I have military aspirations, then thats OK. But if I, for some reasond, DONT want start a new war, then that unit-trigger is stupid and unintuitive.

	08-09-2001 16:43									#13
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I posted this in the other thread on this subject:

First, there's NO WAY that the Art of War and Hoover Dam are Great Wonders. The Fireaxis interview mentions them as wonders, that's it. If there are only 12 wonders in the game I find it EXTREMELY unlikely that Fireaxis would choose these two to fall into that catergory. So.... small wonders can also trigger golden ages.

I don't know that this has been clarified, but it seems to me that a civ can have multiple GAs. (one after a wonder, another after their UU wins, etc.) I don't think that it's a one time only thing. Why provide so many ways to have a GA, but then only allow one? It doesn't make sense since they know people would hold off on their one GA until they were in an advantageous position.

	08-09-2001 16:50									#14
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Yes that's true, I guess if minor Wonders could trigger a GA, by whatever ratio decided or even a combination between a few of them, a peaceful GA would never be blocked since they can be built by everyone.
Firaxis is still dwelling on the subject, let's see what playtesting brings to this new concept, and let's hope the game comes out balanced.
But at least GAs can be turned off if necessary, and that's an option we can't afford to overlook for now.


(jsw363, it's a given fact that GAs only occur once. It's written everywhere, like at Civ3.com, it's been confirmed many times, besides it just wouldn't make sense otherwise, since a GA aims to reflect the highest turning point of a nation. The way to trigger them, well... that's another question).

Last edited by PGM on 08-09-2001 at 16:56

	08-09-2001 17:06									#15
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quote: Originally posted by jsw363 First, there's NO WAY that the Art of War and Hoover Dam are Great Wonders.

I must agree that "Art of war" seems a little vague, and "Hoover dam" - well thats just a "organized concrete" (although american). Anyway, I dont care so much about that. If they are considered great within the game-environment, I can live with it.

quote: I don't know that this has been clarified, but it seems to me that a civ can have multiple GAs.

No thanks! That would only work inflationary on gameplay. Only one golden age per Civ, please.