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static
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Los Angeles, CA
Aug 2001
time: 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Kc7mxo
Clinton as top 5 president? Thats rather a stretch don't you think.
Any economist can tell you that the president has very little effect on the economy. His handling of the oil crisis? Please.
Greatest economic boom. The economic boom was alrady gaining strength s he went in to office. He merely didn't do anything to hinder it. And the current reccession started before he left office. But it wasn't his fault either.
JFk would certainly belong higher up on the list if only for his more unifyiny abilities (thoguh he wasn't universally liked, not by a long shot). I think that in the great book of history clinton will go down next to taft, nothing special. |
Clinton had very little effect on the economy??? Let's see:
Clinton's administration dealings with Middle East countries lower the price of a oil in the country greatly (This is a historical fact). Production in the country is directly tied into oil, the fact that oil and energy prices have gone up under G.W. Bush is one of the reasons for our recent economic downturn.
His administration and the Republicans of Congress worked together to on many issues(welfare reform etc...), and he turned around the nation's deficit and left us with a 'estimated' surplus,(which since he left is already gone).
The influence of the internet should also not be forgotten. He made expanding the internet one of his top goal early in his term, way before most people even knew what the internet was, (I still remember those LAME bridge to the 21st century commercials they made). Internet companies were a huge part of the economic boom.
I think most people who say Clinton had nothing to do with America's economy are foolish. Forget all your polictical affiliations and just look at history for what it is, and you will see this. If people stopped calling themselves Democrats, Republicans, Liberals,Conservatives, etc.........., and we just called ourselves AMERICANS, then I think things would be much better.
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jsw363
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quote:
Originally posted by static
Clinton had very little effect on the economy??? Let's see:
Clinton's administration dealings with Middle East countries lower the price of a oil in the country greatly (This is a historical fact). Production in the country is directly tied into oil, the fact that oil and energy prices have gone up under G.W. Bush is one of the reasons for our recent economic downturn.
His administration and the Republicans of Congress worked together to on many issues(welfare reform etc...), and he turned around the nation's deficit and left us with a 'estimated' surplus,(which since he left is already gone).
The influence of the internet should also not be forgotten. He made expanding the internet one of his top goal early in his term, way before most people even knew what the internet was, (I still remember those LAME bridge to the 21st century commercials they made). Internet companies were a huge part of the economic boom.
I think most people who say Clinton had nothing to do with America's economy are foolish. Forget all your polictical affiliations and just look at history for what it is, and you will see this. If people stopped calling themselves Democrats, Republicans, Liberals,Conservatives, etc.........., and we just called ourselves AMERICANS, then I think things would be much better. |
Sorry, can't allow this to slip by and let people think that this is correct.
With regards to energy prices... I distinctly remember two years ago when Americans (especially farmers in the Midwest) were complaining that gasoline was too expensive. There were LINES for gas in some places (not like bread lines in N. Korea, but still). Last Christmas, while Clinton was still in office, the energy crisis was so bad that California couldn't even light the state Christmas tree. Doesn't seem like Clinton was such a genius when it came to energy prices.
Clinton EXPANDED the federal gov't and its programs. If you're spending more how does this contribute to becoming fiscally sound. Your math doesn't add up. Clinton just happened to be president when companies were making so much money that more taxes came in, not that he slashed gov't spending in order to stop the deficit from growing.
With regards to the internet... Yes, Clinton was President when the Internet became widely used, but besides getting some computers for classrooms what did he really do. He didn't even begin to focus on the Internet until 1996. The private sector had for many years been developing the technology without Clinton's technology initiatives for many years. I think the credit for the Internet goes not to Gore  or Clinton, but to the American private sector.
If you want to talk about the economic growth, many people think that Clinton really didn't have much to do with the growth, but jsut happened to be there at the right time. Many would credit Greenspan or Reagan with creating the environment for growth. Just wanted to point out that this is a deisputed area even among economists.
I think that he was a good president, but definitely NOT top 5. Somewhere in the middle of the pack. And the stuff that he put the nation through with his scandals (Whitewater, Tyson Foods, Travelgate, presidential pardons, stealing furniture, Vince Foster, Gennifer Flowers, Paula Jones, and one fat intern) didn't exactly help the country, regardless of his involvement in these affairs.
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static
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Los Angeles, CA
Aug 2001
time: 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by jsw363
Sorry, can't allow this to slip by and let people think that this is correct.
With regards to energy prices... I distinctly remember two years ago when Americans (especially farmers in the Midwest) were complaining that gasoline was too expensive. There were LINES for gas in some places (not like bread lines in N. Korea, but still). Last Christmas, while Clinton was still in office, the energy crisis was so bad that California couldn't even light the state Christmas tree. Doesn't seem like Clinton was such a genius when it came to energy prices.
Clinton EXPANDED the federal gov't and its programs. If you're spending more how does this contribute to becoming fiscally sound. Your math doesn't add up. Clinton just happened to be president when companies were making so much money that more taxes came in, not that he slashed gov't spending in order to stop the deficit from growing.
With regards to the internet... Yes, Clinton was President when the Internet became widely used, but besides getting some computers for classrooms what did he really do. He didn't even begin to focus on the Internet until 1996. The private sector had for many years been developing the technology without Clinton's technology initiatives for many years. I think the credit for the Internet goes not to Gore or Clinton, but to the American private sector.
If you want to talk about the economic growth, many people think that Clinton really didn't have much to do with the growth, but jsut happened to be there at the right time. Many would credit Greenspan or Reagan with creating the environment for growth. Just wanted to point out that this is a deisputed area even among economists.
I think that he was a good president, but definitely NOT top 5. Somewhere in the middle of the pack. And the stuff that he put the nation through with his scandals (Whitewater, Tyson Foods, Travelgate, presidential pardons, stealing furniture, Vince Foster, Gennifer Flowers, Paula Jones, and one fat intern) didn't exactly help the country, regardless of his involvement in these affairs. |
Let me just say, I didn't vote for Clinton in any of the elections, and really don't like the guy, unfortuanatly it seems that I have to defend him. 
Oil prices have gone over the last two years, but that's more of Clinton being a lameduck president after the impeachment. Our so-called energy crisis in Cailfornia doesn't exist, we had no blackouts this summer and actually sold off EXTRA energy we bought for $1 kilowatt  . It was all media hype like Y2K, and cost us California millions, hopefully it costs our governor Gray Davis his shot at being President in 2004.
The Federal government has expanded under Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and Bush again, I think that has more to do with Congress.
Almost every president has had multiple scandals, Reagan was a good leader, but should he be disregarded because of Iran-Contra, of course not.
Lastly, of course the private sector built up the Internet, but his technology initiatives Sped up and aided the development of it greatly.
I think I need to go take a shower now after giving out all this praise to Clinton. 
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quote:
Originally posted by Transcend
Speaking of scandals, how about Catherine of Russia who was able to consume several men during a single night? Wasn't she still called the "Great" by historians?
You moral purists should remind that many great US presidents(Jefferson, Jackson, FDR, and JFK) would have been picked apart by today's media and the Independent Counsel. |
However with Clinton we really don't know where to start. In Gov circle he was going to out bang every other president who did bang. You may not relize this, If Clinton was a goverment Employee doing what he did, he would have been fired. A friend of mine gave me a paper to read several year ago on Clinton and the people that worked around him in the early days, guess what they are all dead now. You cannot tell a tale if you are dead. A guy call someone and said I will be home in a few min. and then kills himself (Vince Foster), you tell me.
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Transcend
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Boulder, Colorado, USA
Apr 1999
time: 22:15
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph1944
However with Clinton we really don't know where to start. In Gov circle he was going to out bang every other president who did bang. You may not relize this, If Clinton was a goverment Employee doing what he did, he would have been fired. A friend of mine gave me a paper to read several year ago on Clinton and the people that worked around him in the early days, guess what they are all dead now. You cannot tell a tale if you are dead. A guy call someone and said I will be home in a few min. and then kills himself (Vince Foster), you tell me. |
Yeah, yeah. What paper was that? Lots of people love conspiracy theories and this country is full of it. Even moon landing was claimed to be fake according to some "independent" and "reliable" sources. Clinton has many friends, numbering perhaps in thousands. Don't you have friends dying from time to time, too?
Of course, Clinton was the one ever got caught, and you can argue that there were many "uncaught" acts by him. But again, these are stuffs for Consipiracy Theorists and I would give Clinton the benefit of doubt.
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quote:
Originally posted by Transcend
Of course, Clinton was the one ever got caught, and you can argue that there were many "uncaught" acts by him. But again, these are stuffs for Consipiracy Theorists and I would give Clinton the benefit of doubt. |
The innocence of youth. Because you are young I will forgive you for it. If you were my age and said that I would be very concerned. I worked for the US gov for 33 years 4 mo. 11 day, you watch every step they take and question every other step and you will survive. The first time you take your eyes off them watch out.
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quote:
Originally posted by Transcend
Well, Joseph. I'd like to apologize for some of the harsh words I used against you before. Even though you are on guard against the US government, you still bought lots of its propaganda against other countries. I find your views on China sometimes biased and offensive, prompting some harsh responses from me. Now that I know your situation, I no longer blame you for that. |
Thank you. Some of the propaganda but not all. The people of China and China itself no, the Goverment Yes big time. Any Goverment that put down its people forget it in my book, even some of those so-called Dem. anti-Communist w/a dictator Gov. In the 80s, If a person from San Salvador had ask me to hide him/her I think I would have.
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static
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Los Angeles, CA
Aug 2001
time: 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph1944
The innocence of youth. Because you are young I will forgive you for it. If you were my age and said that I would be very concerned. I worked for the US gov for 33 years 4 mo. 11 day, you watch every step they take and question every other step and you will survive. The first time you take your eyes off them watch out. |
While I have been defending Clinton's record, I agree that there is ALOT that happens behind the scenes the general public doesn't know about. Ron Brown's plane crash, Clinton's dealing with China, etc.., HOWEVER, almost ever president and Civ leader has had various scandals also. Ceasar, Napolean, Mao, Alexander, etc., all have done terrible things, were they not 'great' leaders.
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Adrien
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Well, in 1948, Arthur Schlesinger (A really famous historian dude. Ask your history teacher who he is) published a famous list of presidents, ranked by their achievements while in office.
He did it again in 1962. Here's the 1962 list.
Great
1. Lincoln
2. Washington
3. F. Roosevelt
4. Wilson
5. Jefferson
Near great
6. Jackson
7. T. Roosevelt
8. Polk / Truman (tie)
9. J. Adams
10. Cleveland
Average
11. Madison
12. J. Q. Adams
13. Hayes
14. McKinley
15. Taft
16. Van Buren
17. Monroe
18. Hoover
19. B. Harrison
20. Arthur / Eisenhower
21. A. Johnson
Below average
22. Taylor
23. Tyler
24. Fillmore
25. Coolidge
26. Pierce
27. Buchanan
Failure
28. Grant
29. Harding
I've been looking for the 1996 list, with no success just yet.
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Adrien
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Also, Reagan was an idiot.
"Yes! Let's build a missile defense system that violates the basic laws of physics! We'll use a giant laser to shoot down missiles! Never mind that laser light is diffracted in air, making it totally worthless for shooting down ANYTHING! I'm president, and I can do whatever I want!"
Congress can't repeal the laws of physics, much as they would like to.
It's basic high school science.
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I received this on the Internet. An American talking about America.
Subject: FW: BAD AMERICAN
Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2001
Written by Ted Nugent, the rock singer and hunter/naturalists, upon
hearing that California Senators B. Boxer and D. Feinstein denounced him
for being a "gun owner" and a "Rock Star". This was his response after
telling the senators about his past contributions to children's charities
and scholarship foundations which have totaled more than $13.7 million in
the last 5 years!!
I'm a Bad American - this pretty much sums it up for me. I like big
trucks, big boats, big houses, and naturally, pretty women.
I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some midlevel
governmental functionary with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to
crack addicts squirting out babies. I don't care about appearing
compassionate.
I think playing with toy guns doesn't make you a killer. I believe
ignoring your kids and giving them Prozac might.
I think I'm doing better than the homeless.
I don't think being a minority makes you noble or victimized. I have the
right not to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird or
make me mad. This is my life to live, and not necessarily up to others
expectations.
I know what SEX is and there are not varying degrees of it.
I don't celebrate Kwanzaa. But if you want to that's fine; I just don't
feel like everyone else should have to.
I believe that if you are selling me a Dairy Queen shake, a pack of
cigarettes, or hotel room you do it in English. As of matter of fact, if
you are an American citizen you should speak English. My uncles and
forefathers shouldn't have had to die in vain so you can leave the
countries you were born in to come disrespect ours, and make us bend to
your will. Get over it.
I think the cops have every right to shoot your sorry butt if you're
running from them after they tell you to stop. If you can't understand the
word 'freeze' or 'stop' in English, see the previous line.
I don't use the excuse "it's for the children" as a shield for unpopular
opinions or actions.
I know how to count votes and I feel much safer letting a machine with no
political affiliation do a recount when needed.
I know what the definition of lying is, and it isn't based on the word
"is" - ever.
I don't think just because you were not born in this country, you qualify
for any special loan programs, gov't sponsored bank loans, etc., so you
can open a hotel, 7-Eleven, trinket shop, or any thing else, while the
indigenous peoples can't get past a high school education because they
can't afford it.
I didn't take the initiative in inventing the Internet.
I thought the Taco Bell dog was funny.
I want them to bring back safe and sane fireworks.
I believe no one ever died because of something Ozzy Osbourne, Ice-T or
Marilyn Manson sang, but that doesn't mean I want to listen to that crap
from someone else's car when I'm stopped at a red light. But I respect
your right to.
I think that being a student doesn't give you any more enlightenment than
working at Blockbuster or Jack In The Box.
I don't want to eat or drink anything with the words light, lite or
fat-free on the package.
Our soldiers did not go to some foreign country and risk their lives in
vain and defend our Constitution so that decades later you can tell me
it's a living document ever changing and is open to interpretation. The
guys who wrote it were light years ahead of anyone today, and they meant
what they said - now leave the document alone, or there's going to be
trouble.
I don't hate the rich. I help the poor.
I know wrestling is fake.
I've never owned, or was a slave, and a large percentage of our
forefathers weren't wealthy enough to own one either. Please stop blaming
me because some prior white people were idiots - and remember, tons of
white, Indian, Chinese, and other races have been enslaved too - it was
wrong for every one of them.
I believe a self-righteous liberal Democrat with a cause is more dangerous
than a Hell's Angel with an attitude.
I want to know exactly which church is it where the "Reverend" Jessie
Jackson preaches; and, what exactly is his job function.
I own a gun, you can own a gun, and any red blooded American should be
allowed to own a gun, but if you use it in a crime, then you will serve
the time.
I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every penny he made and
continue to make more. If it makes you mad, then invent the next operating
system that's better and put your name on the building. Ask your buddy
that invented the Internet to help you.
I don't believe in hate crime legislation. Even suggesting it makes me
mad. You're telling me that someone who is a minority,gay, disabled,
another nationality, or otherwise different from the mainstream of this
country has more value as a human being that I do as a white male. If
someone kills anyone, I'd say that it's a hate crime. We don't need more
laws! Let's enforce the ones we already have.
I think turkey bacon, turkey beef, turkey fake anything sucks.
I believe that it doesn't take a village to raise a child-it takes a
parent with the guts to stand up to the kid and spank his butt and say
"NO!" when it's necessary to do so.
I'll admit that the only movie that ever made me cry was Ole Yeller.
I didn't realize Dr. Seuss was a genius until I had a kid.
I will not be frowned upon or be looked down upon or be made to keep
silent because I have these beliefs and opinions. I thought this country
allowed me that right. I will not conform or compromise just to keep from
hurting somebody's feelings. I'm neither angry nor disenfranchised, no
matter how desperately the mainstream media would like the world to
believe otherwise.
Yes, I guess by some people's definition, I may be a bad American. But
that's tough.
Ted Nugent
Last edited by on 11-09-2001 at 08:15
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:15
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quote:
Originally posted by joseph1944
A friend of mine gave me a paper to read several year ago on Clinton and the people that worked around him in the early days, guess what they are all dead now. You cannot tell a tale if you are dead. A guy call someone and said I will be home in a few min. and then kills himself (Vince Foster), you tell me. |
Ahh, the old conspiracy theory that Clinton killed off his enemy. It is a classic urban myth that has been debunked. See:
http://www.snopes2.com/inboxer/outrage/clinton.htm
But to get back on topic, Lincoln is a great choice for the American leader. Yes, there are other presidents who did a lot, but without Lincoln, the U.S. would not exist as we know it.
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Imran Siddiqui
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The Potterverse
Jan 1970
time: 00:15
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quote:
Eisenhower , He was perhaps our dumbest president ever, he makes G.W. Bush look like Einstein.
JFK was a good president, Apollo Program was his idea and many thought he was crazy at the time. Leadership during the Cuban missile crisis, and of course, banging Marilyn Monroe (I guess I have a one track mind).
Clinton was ranked mid-pack because is was still in office, 50 years from now I think they will rank him in the top five. |
Yes Eisenhower! Considered one of the better Presidents. Especially for his pushing of the Interstate Highway Act and the way he acted in foriegn policy with the Soviets. He is unversally praised with realising that nukes give you more bang for the buck and relying on MAD. Also he warned us about the Military-Industrial Complex.
JFK was utterly worthless. He had no idea what he was doing in office. He may have been a relatively smart guy (though the only reason he went to Harvard is because of Pop). The Apollo Program, IIRC, was originally concieved during the Eisenhower Administration. For the Cuban Missile Crisis, did you also factor in his utter failure during the Bay of Pigs?
Clinton was not in office when ranked. And 50 years from now, I wouldn't be suprised if he was ranked LOWER. He reminds me of Warren G. Harding. A popular president during a booming economy, even in the face of scandels. Now considered by historians to be utterly contemptable. Clinton might not fall into the same catagory, but he won't be anything greater than mid-level, where, frankly, he deserves to be.
As for a set of rankings:
http://opinionjournal.com/hail/math/mathintro.html
This was done by the Federalist Society who got 78 scholars from left to right to respond.
Reagan was ranked 8th and Eisenhower 9th. Washington was #1 by a hair over Lincoln. FDR was 3.
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Kc7mxo
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Kansas City, Kansas
Jan 1970
time: 21:15
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""""""""""""""""""""
The man was a senile, doddering old fool. The national debt grew an average of 23.6% per year under his tenure, almost twice as fast as under his nearest competitor. His defense spending funded a boom which had to be paid for by the late 80s bust.
""""""""""""""""""""
Do you know anything about economics?
A Mister Keys (SP?) wrote a document that has become the foundation of our economic policies.
I doubt anyone is interesting in reading the whole thing, but many of you may already have.
However, a key concept is that during an economic low, a governement is supposed to spend, spend, spend, into as big a defficet as needed. This jumpstarts the economy.
What our governement has most recently failed to realize, is that when this pays off with an economic boom, you're supposed to pay OFF the deficet. Which neither clinton nor bush have or are doing. Personally, I'd rather Bush had spent the surplus on the deficit, but u have to give him credit. He said he would give the american people its taxes back, and he did.
A certain some one else would have played word games and lied to us.
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Tingkai
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To find the Northwest Passage
Aug 2001
time: 13:15
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quote:
Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Not evey economist is a die-hard Keynesian, from what I've heard. |
That would be the understatement of the year. 
KH is dead on about what happened in the 80s.
Reagan and the American conservatives are staunch opponents of Keynes.
Kc7mxo was partially right when he wrote: "I doubt anyone is interesting in reading the whole thing, but many of you may already have. "
Very few people would be interested enough to read, let alone understand, Keynes' General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money. It is a difficult read and probably very few people have read it.
A lot of people claim to understand it, but Keynes is often misunderstood.
Keynes argued that during certain economic conditions, using interest rates to spur economic growth won't work. Normally, lower interest rates leads to increased spending because people/businesses can borrow money at a cheap price, or because the cost of repaying existing loans decrease leaving money for additional spending. But in certain cases, this does not work. Sometimes, people believe that interest rates will continue to fall. So they put off spending in hopes of borrowing money at a cheaper rate later on. Or their fears about the economy leads then to stop spending out of fear they may lose their jobs/business.
Of course, there’s a lot more to Keynes ideas, but it is interesting to note that interest rates cuts during the past year have failed to spur the economy, mainly because people perceive the economy will remain in a downturn.
Another important point made by Keynes is that cutting government spending during a recession causes the economy to shrink even more.
Keynes’s theories have been extensively attacked since he put forth his ideas in the 1930s. Some of the theories have been discarded, even by those who consider themselves neo-Keynesians. But many of his theories remain in use today.
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09-09-2001 22:11
And you can't forget about him getting 'favors' from an intern while on the phone with senators.
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