09-09-2001 06:17									#31
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I am sorry yin but Civ is the God of Games and Sid is the God of game developers.

They could release Civ2 with new box graphics and it would sell 500,00 copies. They don't have to follow industry conventions with this title.

And they know it.

	09-09-2001 06:21									#32
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Jimmy: Yes, there is much to what you are saying. But I still think a good number of people will watch those initial reviews carefully. Of course, the initial reviews will likely be skewed also in lines with the "Sid Factor."

That's fine. I have my plan to wait, so no big deal. I'm just amazed at the stupidity.

	09-09-2001 09:28									#33
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I find the way they treat their customers not just stupid but ... insolent.

OK, I´ll buy CivIII, because it´s CivIII, after all, but I´ve made a vow to otherwise, if I can help it, NEVER AGAIN BUY A GAME FROM FIRAXIS.

	09-09-2001 09:30									#34
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Oh you'll forget all about this when/if they release Civ4.

	09-09-2001 10:19									#35
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quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick I am sorry yin but Civ is the God of Games and Sid is the God of game developers. They could release Civ2 with new box graphics and it would sell 500,00 copies. They don't have to follow industry conventions with this title. And they know it.

But can they do that with Sim Golf or any of their other games that are coming out in the future? This is the game that they can sell a half million copies and build up a huge reputation or sell a half million copies and piss the idustry off. They should do better.

	09-09-2001 14:05									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Mister Pleasant Also, I forwarded the email firaxis sent me to Dan and Markos. Not to sound too paranoid, but - the fact that neither of them has posted in these forums leads me to believe they already KNOW that MP won't be included and are sitting on the information at Firaxis's request (who are probably worried about bad buzz). After all, its better for them to remain on Firaxis's good side and get more info quicker, than to annoy them by posting information that most likely escaped by accident.

i have not recieved any mail from you and i'm waiting for confirmation from firaxis on the issue

and in case you havent noticed, we already posted in the news about this....

	09-09-2001 15:00									#37
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quote: i have not recieved any mail from you

Now you have. I forwarded the original mail from Firaxis to the address listed on your homepage. Email will be under my real name, not Mister Pleasant. I originally sent it to markg@apolyton.net

Thanks for ridding me of my paranoia

	09-09-2001 15:56									#38
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quote: Originally posted by Mister Pleasant I forwarded the original mail from Firaxis to the address listed on your homepage. Email will be under my real name, not Mister Pleasant. I originally sent it to markg@apolyton.net

Mister Pleasant, you seem to have overlooked this announcement:

EMAIL CONTACT NOTICE

(5 September 2001, 15:01 EST) Since Saturday, September 1st, some Apolyton staff email accounts (those "@apolyton.net") have been experiencing problems in relation to the mail server that they are hosted on on GameStats. Below is alternate contacts for DanQ and MarkG; if you sent any email to one or both of them since Saturday, please re-send to the addresses below to ensure receipt.

DanQ: dquick@superaje.com
MarkG: markg@egnatia.ee.auth.gr

We apologize for this inconvenience -- needless to say, it is an inconvenience to us as well. We will keep you apprised of any ongoing developments in this regard. -DanQ

	09-09-2001 16:31									#39
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 2) Letting casually slip information that absolutely must NOT have been released in such a manner, thereby hurting the company image.

I think you overestimate what impact some of the more childish rantings ( "NEVER AGAIN BUY A GAME FROM FIRAXIS. ) have on the company image. After all, its not like "the world" is following every argument here at Apolyton, is it?

Infact to some degree I can understand them. Compare with the "civ-specific ability" feature: it was very pro/con controversial at the time then Firaxis hinted that something like this would be implemented. A couple of months later the hot feelings had cool off almost completely. Time heals wounds, it seems.

As for the lack of demo: yes I would like to test a demo, but its not like its the end of the world. Also, remember that the man-hours it would take to pre-release a demo isnt wasted. Its put into good use in polishing the actual game instead. The postsponed MP-feature? Well, its only postsponed and the work they already pored into it isnt wasted. Im sure they put the given extra time into good use in favour of a really nice and more stable MP-feature.

quote: It belongs on the official website with a decent explanation/apology to fans.

An official explanation why - OK, thats resonable. But an apology? Give them a break, please. Sure they should care about their fans (I think their regular visits shows that), but standing like ashamed schoolboys arguing back-and-forth with (sometimes) a rabid fan-community?

	09-09-2001 16:33									#40
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"Apology" is a standard PR thing when you are NOT going to deliver on something you know people are expecting. I'm not talking about them groveling. See the 'fake letter' above. Common sense.

	09-09-2001 20:43									#41
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All they have to do is tell us. I would be happy to forgive 'em. But they don't tell us about anything. We to them are just these mindless drones that will buy any game with Sid's name on it and I am sick of it.

I think they should delay the game. That is what Blizzard is doing and that simple reason is why I am going to buy WarCraft III. They had the curteousy to make sure the game was good before a single soul bought it. I appreciate it.

	09-09-2001 20:59									#42
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I'd like to point out to yin, when does a couple months become a year, then two years, then never published. You keep saying Firaxis is randomly changing things, etc. Personally, I think they like having a tight grip on communications and at least half of these recent changes were in fact in the game, or they weren't sure whether to include them or not because of gameplay/balance issues. In fact quite a few of the recent changes I see as being "cosmetic", or something that could be easily changeable by a modder. I was a little harsh in an earlier thread when I said it, but I still beleive that Firaxis knows what it's doing and it has no obligation to provide a community such as this with info. Personally, they only way I see them wanting to release info is on their website or somewhere with a broader base, aka a gaming magazine. I think it's wildly optimistic by you to expect Firaxis to give Aplyton weekly developement updates.

I'm an optimist too though, how else could I continue to root for Da Bears?

	09-09-2001 21:50									#43
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Quote by yin26:

Many, many of the top-selling games were NOT released for Christmas. In fact, the Christmas window is often a crutch to get more sales than the game deserves. Mom and dad are in a rush to buy something to put under the tree...ah, Civ? Looks educational! If Infogrames is pushing the Christmas angle and is willing to cut out a demo, MP and more time to test, then I can only say two things:

1) They have played the game and know it is weak so see Christmas as their only chance to meet profit expectations; or
2) They are ready to rape the Civ name at any cost.

The "best of both worlds" argument is nice but not supported by what we have been seeing in the least.


I couldn't agree with you more, yin26. As soon as I heard about the pre-Christmas release, a big lump formed in my throat.

I have been burned by too many computer companies and games not to be worried about what I see happening to Civ III. It seems to be following a familiar pattern.

I am hoping for the best; but I am expecting some disappointments.

Doesn't it seem odd that after all these posts on the subject of MP being left out of the October release of Civ3, that no one from Firaxis is denying it?

And for those who wear rose-coloured glasses, and do not see problems developing for this game: remember that we are thinking human beings and not lemmings. . .

	10-09-2001 01:41									#44
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As someone who has "dabbled" a bit in PR (on a student/political level), I think Firaxis up until this last slip-up (still not confirmed, btw) were doing fairly well though I agree they could have done a whole lot better. Yin, on the other hand, is doing a pretty damn terrible job, and manages to get everyone annoyed at him.

I'm not sure that a more thorough press release concerning the demo would have helped at all, because it would have meant accepting blame. As it was, Kelley released the info through the rumour mill which often will do more ill than good, but in this case it managed to make the non-release of a demo sound as if it were the most natural thing in the world. I'm convinced that any excuse offered up by Firaxis would have made it worse, and not releasing any info at all would have made y'all a whole lot angrier when it finally surfaced. The lack of direct response on the boards has only helped keep talk of it down, and let's face it, no-one talked about it for about a week before this new thing came up.
As it was, that issue blew over pretty quickly pretty early in the PR campaign, and I'd say that's probably a good way to handle it.

The same can not be said of the Multiplayer issue, if that is true as stated. My gut feeling on this one is that a positive-spin press release announcing the cut in such a way that it would be hidden under positive new info would have been the way to go. Star Wars Galaxies handled this pretty well- when they announced the lack of space combat in the game, they did it as part of announcing the forthcoming first expansion. Also, the lack of direct response has only made things worse here, mainly because the original message was vague enough (did it say no multiplayer at all? No IP multiplayer? Only PBEM multiplayer? No PBEM multiplayer? I still haven't figured that one out) to be interpreted in the severest possible way. The thing Kelley should do now (well, on monday morning) is to post right here what the deal is. This one won't die down as easily, but having nothing to discuss will make it seem less urgent than it does now.

	10-09-2001 03:10									#45
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quote: ...because it would have meant accepting blame.

I don't call this 'blame.' It's just doing the bare minimum to show respect for your fans and not keep them quessing or to have to hope for a leak of information to somebody in an e-mail.

It's about professionalism.

Chirst...just put it in the FAQ if nothing else: "Will there be a demo?": 'There are no plans for a pre-release demo for Civ 3 though a demo in the future is still possible.'

How is that accepting blame? It's accepting the good sense of telling people in a proper way what is going on.

	10-09-2001 03:29									#46
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Snapcase,

While I would have prefered Firaxis to have delayed the game if MP was not finished, I would simply be satisfied and less pissed if they had just told me it wasn't going to be included.

I probably would have said well I hardly ever play MP so I really don't care all that much. But hearing it through a rumor with no new information or something to say hey we are working hard and the game is coming along makes me believe that we are all getting screwed by Infogrames.

I'll tell you what if they had given me the letter that I wrote or something similar to it I would have made a total of three posts on the subject. One wow I can't believe MP is not in. Two that is a disappointment. Three well I guess SP is this fall and I can prefect it before MP.

But because nothing has been said and they seem to be hiding stuff from us I have posted 25 posts against the whole concept. I am angry. Whether Kelly can fix it with a letter sometime this week will remain to be seen. Depends on what info they give us.

	10-09-2001 03:38									#47
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quote: Originally posted by Ralf some of the more childish rantings

Sorry to disagree with your polite remark, but why is it a childish ranting when I say I, personally will not buy any more games from Firaxis? I was simply stating a fact, not demanding anyone else to boycott the company (though, at second thought, it might be a good idea ).

	10-09-2001 03:52									#48
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quote: Originally posted by Snapcase As someone who has "dabbled" a bit in PR (on a student/political level), I think Firaxis up until this last slip-up (still not confirmed, btw) were doing fairly well though I agree they could have done a whole lot better. Yin, on the other hand, is doing a pretty damn terrible job, and manages to get everyone annoyed at him.

Oh, no. At the worst, it may be said of Yin that he is polarizing the factions, so to speak. I, for example, agree with 98.5 % of what he says, and I don´t think I am the only follower of the Yin cult. Leonidas, for example, seems to view the case pretty much as we do. Anyone else who does want to join the 'Yin Alliance'?

	10-09-2001 03:58									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Anyone else who does want to join the 'Yin Alliance'?

No. Please no clubs, alliances, or groups again. Last time it happened the thread went to war over some silly titles.

	10-09-2001 05:08									#50
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There is no need for clubs or alliances; but there is a need for a healthy dose of scepticism.

CivIII could have been released in a brown paper bag at any time of the year, and it would sell hundreds of thousands of copies. It is one of the most anticipated titles of the year. There is no need for cheap tricks, short-cuts, deadline dates, etc, etc. . .

But when the suits scan bottomlines, then deadlines rear their ugly heads. . .

I hope I am wrong, but unfortunately, it all appears to be following a familiar pattern: deadline date - therefore - no demo, no 800x600 resolution, no outside testing, no multiplayer, only sixteen civs, etc, etc. . .

The deadline date is determining the testing and the content. This is not a good way to start.

And IF (and I strongly use the word IF) MP is not included in the Oct release - then that means Firaxis is trying to pull a fast one on their most dedicated fan base. It's not until you get to the store to buy Civ3 that you realize that MP is not included. Even then, from the description on the box, you may not even know it's not included until you get it home.

Also, look at all the pre-release orders for the game from people who had been expecting MP to be included. I'd be darned ticked if I had done that.

Firaxis needs to deal with this issue ASAP - especially if it's not true.

	10-09-2001 07:59									#51
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quote: Originally posted by Leonidas Firaxis needs to deal with this issue ASAP - especially if it's not true.

They need to deal this ASAP regardless. That is what this PR thread is all about. A good PR person would spin any problem like a lack of MP to mean great things. This means saying what a lot of you have said that cutting MP only makes SP stronger. I don't believe it but that is what they should say. And quickly. They have to get something out to counter people like me that are running scared.

	10-09-2001 08:42									#52
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quote: Originally posted by tniem No. Please no clubs, alliances, or groups again.

And I thought it was obvious I was making a joke.

	10-09-2001 13:07									#53
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I have edited in a substantial portion to my opening remarks in this thread. The edit is inspired by a question from Markos. Please take a look and give me your thoughts. Thanks.

	10-09-2001 13:28									#54
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yin, i dont care about impressions and public announcements

i only care about what the final game will be like. i'll judge firaxis on that

	10-09-2001 13:51									#55
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MarkG

quote: i only care about what the final game will be like. i'll judge firaxis on that

i agree completely, all i want is a high quality civ3, no matter when it comes out (be it today or next june)

	10-09-2001 13:55									#56
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Markos:

Your approach is the sane one. For same crazy reason, though, I think it pays to make our concerns known PRIOR to the release of the game. Following your line of thinking, the List probably never would have happened, either, since your stance is a passive one.

Again, that's fine. You have saved yourself a lot of worry, no doubt. But if Firaxis peeks on these boards and rethinks some issues even ONCE for the betterment of Civ3, I'll be happy.

	10-09-2001 14:01									#57
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Following your line of thinking, the List probably never would have happened, either, since your stance is a passive one.

nothing to do with that!!! the List was the right thing to at the right time!

with a release date around 45 days away from now, why should i give much thought on what civ3 might come out in a feww weeks? or whine about something that SEEMS to be wrong (IF it is true in the first place)?


btw, so much for going on exile...

	10-09-2001 14:07									#58
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I already announced my come-back. Though if I decide to wait to buy Civ 3 until May of next year, I'll probably avoid the forums during that period. And if I never decide to buy Civ 3, look for me in the MOO3 section.

Markos, the word 'whine' is really unfair. I realize you like to look at the bright side and all that, but the lack of demo and public beta even when Jeff wanted to do one, raises valid concerns. And certainly the possibility (AGAIN!) of no MP on release will give players a good reason to voice their unhappines at the decision. Call it whining if you want. Firaxis can ignore it as whining, too.

But does it makes sense to ignore your customers' concerns?

You are certainly free to throw up your hands, ignore the signs and make the normal excuses for the developers that you always do. As I said in FAO4: It's your job not to be critical I guess, no matter how clearly the situation might call for it.

Carry on, Markos.

	10-09-2001 14:21									#59
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 Markos, the word 'whine' is really unfair. I realize you like to look at the bright side and all that, but the lack of demo and public beta even when Jeff wanted to do one, raises valid concerns.

concerns that we can do very little about. in fact they only thing we can do is ask for explanations....
and that doesnt validate lots of shouting and hysteria...

quote: But does it makes sense to ignore your customers' concerns?

no, but again, firaxis is producing games, i'll judge their games, not their pr

quote: You are certainly free to throw up your hands, ignore the signs and make the normal excuses for the developers that you always do. As I said in FAO4: It's your job not to be critical I guess, no matter how clearly the situation might call for it.

i'm not in the job of making excuses yin. you can see how critical or fair i have been towards the games and the companies that we cover from our news coverage, the previews i have written and the way we have administrated the forums all these years

	10-09-2001 14:24									#60
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Markos: Do you or do you not do everything in your power to make the developer look good? C'mon. This is not an attack on you. Be honest with yourself.

You say you don't care about PR: Then why have a website?