08-09-2001 20:28									#1
	Now, if YOU were the Firaxis PR person... Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

EDITED IN AFTER A QUESTION FROM MARKOS:

MarkG:

quote: so the problem is in the IMPRESSIONS that people get from how things are made public....

I think that is indeed a huge part of the problem here, Markos. The announcements should be prompt, easily found on the main site, and offer a good explanation. Look at each item:

** No support for low resolution? Public Announcement: "We know that this decision will leave a few of our fans needing to upgrade or to get used to a new resolution, but otherwise we are faced with designing two totally different interfaces because of size limitations in 800X600, and we feel that our artists' time should be spent these last few weeks polishing the overall look of the game."

** No demo? Public Announcement: "We know our fans must be quite confused by this decision, especially since we did so well with our pre-release SMAC demo. While we know some people will watch and wait to buy Civ3 (and being cautious in the PC game market makes sense), we made the decision that a demo for Civ3 simply cannot capture the overall feel of the larger game. Rather than leave people with an impression that Civ3 is something it isn't, we hope that our core fan base and everybody who makes the decision to buy the full game will be more than satisfied and spread the good word."

** No public beta? Public Announcement: "We understand the public's interest in a public beta and had come awfully close to doing one. However, since this is our 4th game on the JACKAL engine, we are confident that the code we are using is very stable. What is left to do is game balance, and we are confident that our in-house team will be able to efficiently and effectively help us with that. Also keep in mind that the Firaxis staff has been playing the game since its proto-type. Jeff Briggs plays 6 hours / day and has been for the past year. While we can't hope to replicate the 'real-world' of Civ 3 experience and styles, we feel the in-house beta will allow us to do more testing faster."

** No MP? Public Announcement: "We have been saying for weeks now that we wanted to do something truly unique for MP. We are still committed to that goal. However, this has meant that we will need to spend far more time on MPs development than would normally have been required. Truthfully, the task has involved far more coding than we initially planned for. So rather than delay SP or release a buggy MP, we will release for free a few months from now what we hope will be the best MP experience the TBS genre has ever had. Our apologies to the MP fans out there. Believe it or not, we'll make it worth your wait."

Now, had each of those messages been made loud and clear on the official site instead of our hearing only parts of things through e-mails to a single fan, I guarantee you very few people would have much room to complain.

Oh, they WOULD complain, but they'd have not much to work with.

INITIAL POST:

Would you let info like "No Demo" be leaked from you to some random fan writing an e-mail? And while we wait for confirmation, ask yourself the same about MP. Does that kind of information belong in an e-mail casually handed out to somebody who just happens to ask:

"Hey, how about a demo or MP?"

So Kelly Gilmore is either:

1) Being inexplicatedly forced to (or feels compelled to) relay bad news in the most innane fashion, thereby hurting the company image; or
2) Letting casually slip information that absolutely must NOT have been released in such a manner, thereby hurting the company image. It belongs on the official website with a decent explanation/apology to fans.

If it's #1, I would have told Sid: "Hey, if this is the decision, put it on the web with a nice-sounding explanation. I'll write up a draft for you."

If it's #2, I'd be amazed that Activision's plan to ruin Firaxis from the inside has actually gone this far!

If you were Firaxis' PR Wizard, how would you have advised notifying the public about these and other issues?

	08-09-2001 20:30									#2
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Yin, was my coffee too strong or do I sense your optimism 're:MP'?

	08-09-2001 20:32									#3
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Hi Shane.

There won't be a demo for Civ III.

Thanks for checking.

Kelley

Kelley Gilmore
Communications Manager
Firaxis Games
410-891-3001 x131
kgilmore@firaxis.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Shane Christopher [mailto:gondhi_dm@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2001 10:55 PM
To: askthecivteam@firaxis.com; kgilmore@firaxis.com
Subject: Civ3 Demo and Scenario editors.


Hi Kelley and ATCT,

The SMAC demo was released 2 months before SMAC released, and it is now 2 months before civ3 releases according to Amazon and infrogames. Will there be a demo within the next week or two and if so will it include the scenario/map editors so we can start making our own scenarios for when the game releases?
Thanks any information is greatly appreciated.

Shane.
_____

"Thanks for checking."

Jesus. Pathetic is too kind a word.

	08-09-2001 20:34									#4
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I find it unlikely they would screw up this badly, but if it is true they'll not get my money.

SP is for ...others.

	08-09-2001 20:34									#5
	Suffering from ads?

LaRusso: If the MP rumor turns out to be true, I'll have even less to be optimistic about than when I exiled myself a few weeks ago.

	08-09-2001 20:43									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

This is what I probably would have said:

"Dear Fans,

We mave to regretably announce today that the Multiplayer component of Civ III will not be ready for launch. We have been working hard on a number of ideas for both SP and MP and have found that MP is just not ready. Much of this has to do with trying to make a mainly SP game available to those that want to play a quick game against their friends. We have had trouble doing so and so we need more time on the MP aspect.

At the same time we decided to launch the game in October still because SP is looking faboulous. It really will be the greatest Civ experience of all time. We didn't want you the fans to have to wait to play a mainly SP game simply because our MP isn't yet fully worked out.

At Firaxis of course we could have just included the half baked version of MP that we have now. And try throughout the winter and spring patch it to an acceptable level. But we in all things strive for perfection. So we will be releasing MP at a later date for either a small fee/free patch off our website.

We again apologize for this inconvenice and we hope that you enjoy this civ experience as much as we have enjoyed making it."


Something to that effect should have been said. But alas it wasn't and I am still pretty angry.

	08-09-2001 20:50									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Tniem: Assuming the rumor is true, your one post has more PR sense in it than anything I've seen from Firaxis these past 5 years. Seriously.

Instead (again assuming this is verified), we have this, through highly improper channels:

quote: Civ III is set to release in October, but the multiplayer component won't release until some time next spring (May-ish), which will be too late for your class this year. I could send it to you for possible use next year once it's released.

She forgot to say: "Thanks for checking." Hey, Dan Magaha should be sending her some e-mails for web updates!

	08-09-2001 21:04									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Firaxis do us a favour and hire Yin for anything so he'l be forced to shut up
(Wonder why they haven't tried it already?)

Seriously, it's once more startng to look quite bad with Civ3.
"Do I want to pay ~65USD for a crappy game with a nice video in it?" is something people at FIRAXIS should ask themselves seriously. I have to at least think about it if all these rumors are true.

	08-09-2001 21:08									#9
	Increase Your PM Length

I don't have to think about it at all.

Screw SP.

	08-09-2001 21:13									#10
	Got spare money?

I like tniem's "fake letter". The truth is that SP will be completely done and finished by October, and it will be really good too. Firaxis could release a half baked MP just to please the fans that demand that all games come shipped with MP. But that would not be fair. Firaxis wants to give TBS fans a really good MP which is something that TBS fans have never really gotten. They could hold onto the SP which would be already done, just so that they release both at the same time. But that is stupid for 2 reasons: first SP is already done, and second, if they wait eventhough SP is done, they will lose money and more importantly, the publisher Infogrammes will lose money.

Infogrammes is doing the sensible thing. They want Firaxis to release civ3 SP on time so that we can at least enjoy and learn the game, and they can make their expected profit. And when MP is ready, it will be released and we will have a trully amazing MP experience which will be a first really for the TBS genre. Also, remember folks, that Infogrammes is also publishing MOO3. They are publishing 2 games that are both highly anticipated TBS games. They can't release both near the same time or they would lose money because people would have to choose between civ3 and MOO3 instead of buying both. They have to release civ3 several months prior to MOO3!

What is the problem? Firaxis is trying to give us the best of both worlds, a great SP experience and a great MP experience. If it means waiting a bit for MP, so be it. It will give us more time to become familiar with the game.

	08-09-2001 21:19									#11
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quote: first SP is already done

Is this why we hear major changes to the game on a continued basis? And even if things were better nailed down, a few extra months for AI tweaking and bug squashing could only help.

quote: if they wait eventhough SP is done, they will lose money

Many, many of the top-selling games were NOT released for Christmas. In fact, the Christmas window is often a crutch to get more sales than the game deserves. Mom and dad are in a rush to buy something to put under the tree...ah, Civ? Looks educational! If Infogrames is pushing the Christmas angle and is willing to cut out a demo, MP and more time to test, then I can only say two things:

1) They have played the game and know it is weak so see Christmas as their only chance to meet profit expectations; or
2) They are ready to rape the Civ name at any cost.

The "best of both worlds" argument is nice but not supported by what we have been seeing in the least.

	08-09-2001 21:26									#12
	Increase the size of your Attachments

damn too many threads all on the same subject...

If that is the only reason they are withholding the MP version then fine, as long as the patch is free!!!!! No Small Fee at all !!! But I doubt that very much !!!!

My other concern is whether the MP patch will simply introduce many "Bugs" or "loopholes" as per Civ 2 MPGE ....

Firaxis answer please!!!!!!

	08-09-2001 21:29									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

Firaxis doesn't have to worry about PR. It's going to sell loads based on at least the following factors:

1) Getting press in Time and NY Times. Even Starcraft and Diablo never got this.
2) Sid Meier's reputation. Why else do they keep putting his name on games?
3) Civ2 is considered the best game of all time by most reviewing sites or magazines. If not they put it in their top 5.
4) Civ2 was a bestseller as well as the original Civ. The projected audience is not just the serious gamers like us, but the "casual" gamers and people who don't even know what HTML means. I have a couple friends who have only played a handful of computer games, such as Myst. Their favorites are Civilization.

Look at CTP. The first one was a bestseller for a while because of its name. Civilization: Call To Power. It didn't matter that the game really sucked, it still continued to sell well even after people started returning it. When the Civ name was dropped after the lawsuit and it was just Call To Power 2, no-one bought it. Activision realized this and stopped supporting it after 1 patch.

And guess what the "masses" who play Civ play? SP.

	08-09-2001 21:32									#14
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Yin: You ignored my MOO3 argument. The fact remains that if they delay civ3 a couple months so as to release the game with MP, then the game would be released too close to MOO3, and that would be very bad for sales. Civ3 and MOO3 share a very similar market, so if the games are released too close to each other, sales will be less because it will be split between the 2. They have to release civ3 and MOO3 several months apart so that the games don't "steal" sales frome each other.

You argument about christman sales is very flimsy too! it has nothing to do with christmas rush. If they delay the game, they would still have to pour money into firaxis to cover costs without any return until MP is released! Delaying the game would reduce profits not because of the christmas rush, but because delays costs money.

You are wrong about the game not being finished. civ3 is officially in beta which proves that all main features anf graphics are final, Firaxis said so! The only changes are small tweaks to the civs attributes as part of final play balancing!
SP does indeed look ready for an october release!

	08-09-2001 21:33									#15
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quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Infogrammes is doing the sensible thing. They want Firaxis to release civ3 SP on time so that we can at least enjoy and learn the game, and they can make their expected profit.

... Iīd even say: in that order.

quote: Also, remember folks, that Infogrammes is also publishing MOO3.

Please donīt remind me of that fact. At least, I want to believe in a highly polished MoO3.

	08-09-2001 21:33									#16
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Oh yin is always yin.

No MP is only a problem if there is no PBEM. For me at least.

I would never play a demo anyway.

I think that we should just cross our fingers and hope for great gameplay and a challenging AI.

yin, buddy, we know you and we know you wont be satisfied anyway...

I can understand that.

	08-09-2001 21:35									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat Yin: You ignored my MOO3 argument. The fact remains that if they delay civ3 a couple months so as to release the game with MP, then the game would be released too close to MOO3, and that would be very bad for sales. Civ3 and MOO3 share a very similar market, so if the games are released too close to each other, sales will be less because it will be split between the 2. They have to release civ3 and MOO3 several months apart so that the games don't "steal" sales frome each other.

This is not true. Icewind Dale was released around the same time as the mighty Diablo 2 and still did extremely well.

Also Civ3's audience is more broad-based than MOO3 as the "casual" gamer who plays Myst and Deer Hunter will buy it and won't even give MOO3 a casual glance.

	08-09-2001 21:39									#18
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat civ3 is officially in beta which proves that all main features anf graphics are final, Firaxis said so!

So you donīt think multiplayer is a main feature in Civ games? (I do, even if I havenīt tried it up to now.)

	08-09-2001 21:41									#19
	Tired of ads?

I would have to disagree that MOO and Civ will take sales away from each other. Veteran gamers who play the genre will buy both in the vast majority of cases.

Civ, if anything, would hurt MOO.

If I were in charge over there I would certainly want the game out in October. That is just smart marketing.

	08-09-2001 22:26									#20
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick I would have to disagree that MOO and Civ will take sales away from each other. Veteran gamers who play the genre will buy both in the vast majority of cases. Civ, if anything, would hurt MOO. If I were in charge over there I would certainly want the game out in October. That is just smart marketing.

Agreed.

Slowhand- More customers than you want to know actually couldnt give a damn what you say on a obscure website...

	08-09-2001 23:10									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Originally posted by lockstep So you donīt think multiplayer is a main feature in Civ games? (I do, even if I havenīt tried it up to now.)

That is not what I meant! Of course MP is an important feature, but it can be added later without interrrupting gameplay. That cannot be said about the trade feature for example. You can't release the game without trade and then add it in later in a patch. I said the game will be complete because all the *gameplay* features are done.

	08-09-2001 23:15									#22
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: This is not true. Icewind Dale was released around the same time as the mighty Diablo 2 and still did extremely well.

Yes, but Icewind Dale is from Interplay, and Diablo 2 is from Blizzard.

Infogrames is publishing both Civ3 and Moo3.

And what is this Christmas argument? Civ3 will have to be delayed significantly to have it come out during the Christmas season!

	08-09-2001 23:21									#23
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by The diplomat That is not what I meant! Of course MP is an important feature, but it can be added later without interrrupting gameplay. That cannot be said about the trade feature for example. You can't release the game without trade and then add it in later in a patch. I said the game will be complete because all the *gameplay* features are done.

They tried this approach with Civ 2 MPGE , and as many MPers will testify, the game is full of loopholes that many people utilise to win that shouldnt be there if the game was desgined with MP from the start... All they did was make multiple human abiltiy , they didnt play test (or not enough) the little nuances in the game that were only made for SP... For a full list of such like go find Mings list of cheats for civ2 in the Appropaite forum, it ahs many :"Features" exposed that obviuslky work well for SP but not MP....

	09-09-2001 05:12									#24
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quote: then the game would be released too close to MOO3, and that would be very bad for sales.

Infogrames has said it will release MOO3 "Three months after Civ3, whenever that might be."

I would just like you to watch the reviews that mention "missing demo" and (???) "missing MP." While most hardcore fans will likely buy Civ3 without those things, the more casual gamer will look at that with a degree of worry.

Finally, there are at least two ways to lose sales:

1) Release a game with CtP-like gameplay. Are you telling me that a few more months in the over would not have HELPED CtP?

2) Release a game without some standard features, giving reviewers plenty of opportunity to say "Well, you won't be able to demo the game, and for now you have no MP, which is terribly odd this day in age. With that in mind, wait for the first round of patches and watch for other people's reviews before you buy."

A faster release does NOT in any way mean more sales. That's just silly. You are talking about saving development time...unfortunately, it's the development time that will determine the sales, and it looks like they are cutting that time short. Most likely sales will be cut with it.

	09-09-2001 05:47									#25
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quote: Does that kind of information belong in an e-mail casually handed out to somebody who just happens to ask: "Hey, how about a demo or MP?"

Hey Yin26, read the thread I started. I wasn't just a fan casually querying information. I was requesting an evaluation copy for a project and noted that the games I was seeking would require a PBEM feature. I was pretty shocked that the Communications Manager wrote back with information about their being no multiplayer. She probably figured that I did not frequent Apolyton. And on second thought, I probably should not have immediately posted that message on Apolyton without thinking. That was probably unprofessional of me to say the least.

Also, I forwarded the email firaxis sent me to Dan and Markos. Not to sound too paranoid, but - the fact that neither of them has posted in these forums leads me to believe they already KNOW that MP won't be included and are sitting on the information at Firaxis's request (who are probably worried about bad buzz). After all, its better for them to remain on Firaxis's good side and get more info quicker, than to annoy them by posting information that most likely escaped by accident.

Anyway Yin, I like the way you suddenly turn into an optimist about Civ3 the moment you hear some possibly negative news about Civ3. Guess you'll be pro-ordering now, right? Jacka$$.

	09-09-2001 05:52									#26
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quote: Jacka$$

Whoa! Where the hell is that coming from? You make no sense. Where am I an optimist in ANY of this? I have ALWAYS been vocal about Civ3's problems and will continue to be. If there is a Jackass anywhere here, it's the guy who starts the NO MP thread without providing us the best proof he can.

And, yes, you were just a casual fan. Your "for my class" crap isn't any more important than some fan looking for information.

At least Kelley should have seen that even if you don't.

	09-09-2001 06:00									#27
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quote: Originally posted by yin26 I would just like you to watch the reviews that mention "missing demo" and (???) "missing MP." While most hardcore fans will likely buy Civ3 without those things, the more casual gamer will look at that with a degree of worry.

And, I'd like you to watch for the reviews that praise the excellent gameplay.

quote: Originally posted by yin26 1) Release a game with CtP-like gameplay. Are you telling me that a few more months in the over would not have HELPED CtP?

Are you saying that civ3 will have ctp like gameplay? All indications are that civ3 will have excellent gameplay.
A few months probably would NOT have helped ctp2 because the problem was a flawed design to begin with. The design team for ctp2 did not understand the civ genre.

quote: Originally posted by yin26 2) Release a game without some standard features, giving reviewers plenty of opportunity to say "Well, you won't be able to demo the game, and for now you have no MP, which is terribly odd this day in age. With that in mind, wait for the first round of patches and watch for other people's reviews before you buy."

Are you saying that civ3 will be missing important features, require numerous patches to fix problems? Why are you assuming the worst for civ3?

quote: Originally posted by yin26 A faster release does NOT in any way mean more sales. That's just silly. You are talking about saving development time...unfortunately, it's the development time that will determine the sales, and it looks like they are cutting that time short. Most likely sales will be cut with it.

As far as I know, Infogrammes was always shooting for an october release. So, if they release civ3 in october, they are releasing the game right on time. They are not cutting development time at all. However, if they delay the game just for MP, then they will be delaying it and thus increase the development costs which will cut into their profits.

They are doing the sensible thing: release the game on time, and release the MP later so that it can be as good as possible instead of the rushed MP of SMAC.

Why are you expecting the worst with civ3?

	09-09-2001 06:07									#28
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Maybe "jacka$$" was out of line. I apologize.

As for using Civ3 in a class project . . .
Publishers send us free stuff all the time in the hopes that we adopt it for class use. The game companies I've contacted have for the most part been interested in my project. Look at it this way. If I select a game for a class, thirty to forty students buy a copy of the game. Other instructors will adopt a project like mine if it proves educational and interesting. More copies sold - future press releases note the educational application of game (might look good the next time Lieberman goes on a crusade also . . . imagine, Quake as educational software).

Its good business on their part to help out. I'm probably the jacka$$ for giving out information they did not believe would travel any further.

	09-09-2001 06:07									#29
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quote: Why are you expecting the worst with civ3?

As I have said, I think Civ3 will be an excellent game EVENTUALLY. But out of the box, the concerns are clear:

** Perhaps no MP, which indicates they didn't pace development properly, and adding MP later can cause all kinds of problems.

** Major game elements (GA triggers, Civ attributes, etc.) are being changed even now. No big deal? Well, how can the AI be programmed to handle those changes in so short a time? = Unbalanced gameplay.

** No demo: This only further supports the lack of time lack of confidence feeling I have about Civ 3.

I could go on, but you have rosy glasses on while I have dark-tints. I suppose we'll both have to see what really happens.

	09-09-2001 06:11									#30
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Mister Pleasant: No worries.

I have taught at the university level for nearly 7 years now, 2 years at UCLA and 5 years now in Korea. I am aware of what you are saying...I got a copy of Virtual University the same way by telling them I work in university admin as well as teach, and I wanted to use the program to simulate some of our current university problems.

I understand it is good business for them. What is NOT good business is leaking major feature information like that.

I'm simply saying a seasoned 'Communications Manager' should have done much, much better than that. I think you'll agree. It's not your fault posting information you have recieved. This is a PR implosion.