10-09-2001 00:29									#1
	Is Civ3 being rushed? Please vote Increase Your PM Length

I justed wanted to see how the community feels on this issue. It seems to me that Civ3 is being rushed: no demo, no beta, no multiplayer all to make christmas. However many are arguing that civ3 is ready for release.

	10-09-2001 00:52									#2
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hey MarkG could you top this?

	10-09-2001 00:58									#3
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It's possible. Personally I have trust in Firaxis, I do not use multiplayer(not until now at least), but I'm afraid the game will get negative reviews in the press without multiplayer. A demo is not necessary for me, but again I think it is important for the recruiting of new players. A beta is not necessary for me, I can see the reasons for having it, but I think it will be fine even without.

In conclusion, I am a bit more worried than before, but not so much that I don't have trust in Firaxis!

	10-09-2001 01:02									#4
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What if they had never planned MP all along? If so, then how can you assume it's being rushed?

Did they ever announce that MP would definitely be included in the release? Of course, I assumed, just like most everyone else that there would be MP since it seems pretty standard in current games.

But if there was no announcement about MP previously, you cannot assume the game is being rushed if they hadn't planned on it in the first place. And I would bet that this was true since they supposedly hadn't started working on it until early August.

On another aspect, I don't know Sid Meier's history with regards to releasing early and patches. Has he rushed games before? If he has, then I would worry more about it, but right now I remain fairly neutral since I don't have compelling evidence either way.

	10-09-2001 01:06									#5
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Nikolai

I think that civ3 will be a good game, but that is not what i am asking. Do you think that the apparent time crunch will prevent civ3 from being as good as it could have been? Am I the only one who is worried at each news story that talks about how the lack of time has prevented this thing or that from making it in the game?

Like support for more players, it appears that a few small changes to a couple of screens would allow 16 players in the game at the same time (probably a HP, 14 AIs, and barbs), this to me makes me think that if the time doesn't exist for that, then maybe they should a little bit of time, even if they have to miss christmas because this feature would certainly increase sales.

	10-09-2001 01:14									#6
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I dont like the NO options - they are biased.

The first option; "No! Civ3 is going to perfect in every way" is an impossible option, regardless of an oktober-01 or a may-02 release. The game can only be "perfect" after massive public feedback based on playing the actual game, and after and all pathes, adjustments, extensions + all the expected modpacks and great scenarios from dedicated Civ-fans.

The second option; "No. Multiplayer is a little used feature that shouldn't delay the release, and all other feature will work fine", is also negatively biased. It assumes that one values MP as an expendable Civ-feature that can be totally ignored - I dont. The second option should instead be...

- No, I believe SP is complete for autumn-01, and MP will be likewise for spring-02.

My vote is for the second No-alternative, but with above meaning.

Last edited by Ralf on 10-09-2001 at 22:45

	10-09-2001 01:15									#7
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quote: Originally posted by korn469 Am I the only one who is worried at each news story that talks about how the lack of time has prevented this thing or that from making it in the game?

perhaps they should not release any information on the game until it's release, and then say "yes, this is what we were planning all along, we didnt cut anything from the original design"


i voted "No! Civ3 is going to perfect in every way" cause i'm tired of all this based-on-pure-speculation discussion

	10-09-2001 01:16									#8
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Oh, sorry! I think I will answer the question as before: it's possible. After all, we don't know what exactly is going on inside the heads of the Firaxians , but, it's possible. I don't think it is necessary to have MP, as said above, but the fact that it's not in, can indicate a little bit rush, yes! Well, I'm optimistic as long as possible!

	10-09-2001 01:26									#9
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Pembleton well either they were planning multiplayer earlier this is from an interview with Sid on March 22, 2001 or it was one big misunderstanding

quote: GSUK: How involved will the multiplayer component be? How do you intend to implement this? Sid: We're working on a really fun and unique multiplayer concept that we'll talk more about when we're closer to completing it.

also i wonder if that story about firaxis not starting on multiplayer till august on civfanatics is true

	10-09-2001 01:39									#10
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You have this 100% backwards. The decision to hold off on multiplayer is PROOF the the game is not being rushed.

Again, you need to control your feeling and look at reality. A pre-Christmas release makes more money. Given the amount of time this game has been in development there is simply no possibility that it can be delayed beyond Christmas 2001. This was decided long ago. It was never and will never be negoitable.

Therefore the developer's have two choices.

1. Release it now with a MP element that they are not happy with or,
2. Release it in SP now and MP in the spring.

Option 2 is the one we want them to take.

Option 2 is financed by charging for the MP element.

That is good otherwise we would be stuck with a "rushed" MP that no one, lest of all the developers, would be happy with.

The poll is biased. Shame on you.

	10-09-2001 01:54									#11
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Everyone here wants it rushed, but it'll end up being delayed.

	10-09-2001 02:03									#12
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I already posted in another thread that I don't care for MP aspect of a TBS game. I'll be happy as long as they get the SP part done well and get the game out before the coming Christmas.

How many of your people do actually play Civ-like games in MP? I find its process long and painful.

	10-09-2001 02:08									#13
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jimmytrick

quote: You have this 100% backwards. The decision to hold off on multiplayer is PROOF the the game is not being rushed.

I disagree. To me this is proof that they are rushing the game to make it out by Christmas, and yes I think that the overall quality of the game will suffer. They to focus time on what they felt was most important, and if this is true (and i still want to have firaxis confirm this because i can't believe that civ3 won't have multiplayer) then they didn't have enough time to focus on an important part of the game. Virtually all strategy games these days have a multiplay component, and not only that, SMAC who is the direct ancestor of Civ3 (engine wise) had multiplayer compatability.

quote: Again, you need to control your feeling and look at reality. A pre-Christmas release makes more money. Given the amount of time this game has been in development there is simply no possibility that it can be delayed beyond Christmas 2001. This was decided long ago. It was never and will never be negoitable.

This is a horrible misconception. A release date does not determine how good a game will be. If civ3 comes out 10/30/01 it will have about two months before Christmas. Huge hits don't sell most of their games in two months. They do it over an extended period of time. If you look at the top ten selling games for the past year, Diablo 2 was on the list every week I think. If a game is good it will sell no matter what time of year it gets released.

If Firaxis is relying completely on Christmas, instead of the quality of civ3 to generate sales then we should be VERY worried.

quote: 1. Release it now with a MP element that they are not happy with or, 2. Release it in SP now and MP in the spring. Option 2 is the one we want them to take. Option 2 is financed by charging for the MP element.

So basically you fully endorse them charging for a standard part of the game? I disagree with that. Standard parts of the game should come in the box.

What if it came down to this

1. Release it now with an AI that they are not happy with or,
2. Release it without an AI now, and then include a good AI in the spring, charging for the AI of course.

I consider Multiplayer just as standard as AI so i consider my hypothetical options to be exactly the same as your suggestion

quote: That is good otherwise we would be stuck with a "rushed" MP that no one, lest of all the developers, would be happy with.

The developers have the responsibility to make sure that they are planning and implementing all areas of the game from the begining of the process. If civ3 doesn't have multiplayer in it when it ships then something went wrong in the development process. Why should the fans be punished by having to pay 80 dollars instead of 50 dollars because either infogrames or firaxis made a mistake?

quote: The poll is biased. Shame on you.

The poll is not biased. However, I am biased in my commitment to having the best possible civ3. I apologize if you would rather have a low quality product, and I am rocking the boat.

	10-09-2001 02:35									#14
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quote: posted by korn469 It seems to me that Civ3 is being rushed: no demo, no beta, no multiplayer all to make christmas

Why do you claim there's no beta? It's in beta right now. I will take the optimistic view. While we don't know what goes on behind closed doors at firaxis, I have confidence that they will produce the worlds greatest computer game when it is released. I also have confidence that if they don't include multiplayer (which is likely, but unproven) that they will patch it as soon as possible, free of charge. Deus ex (entirely different game, i know) for instance, had a free multiplayer patch. It may seem like they have nothing forcing them to patch MP for free, but companies have nothing forcing them to ever patch at all, and firaxis is likely to release it free.

	10-09-2001 03:04									#15
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by jimmytrick You have this 100% backwards. The decision to hold off on multiplayer is PROOF the the game is not being rushed.

So what does not releasing a demo mean? Or that they are not doing a public beta that they said they would have liked to do?

That they have tons of time on their hand.

quote: Again, you need to control your feeling and look at reality. A pre-Christmas release makes more money. Given the amount of time this game has been in development there is simply no possibility that it can be delayed beyond Christmas 2001. This was decided long ago. It was never and will never be negoitable.

Well I guess games such as the Sims, all Blizzard titles, Tropico, and many many other games that were not released around Chirstmas. Sure there are high sales but they are spread to many many games that are being released. None of which guarantees huge sales for your title.

quote: Option 2 is the one we want them to take. Option 2 is financed by charging for the MP element.

What happens if Civ 3 without MP doesn't sell because the reviews said that it was to rushed or that it gets lost in the Christmas shuffle? Just like CtP2 we will be without a good MP, they just won't do it for us. So they should delay the entire game until it is finished.

	10-09-2001 03:50									#16
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I choose the second statement, but we must read " little used feature...by me . Every player has a distinct order of preferences about game features....

	10-09-2001 05:30									#17
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korn, your bang on the money! anyone who kids themselves that Civ3 is being rushed is ..er.. kidding themselves!

no demo
no beta
no MP

and thats just the stuff we know about, it's got deadline written all over it.

how can you not have a public beta with a agmes like civ?

	10-09-2001 05:59									#18
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Precisely. There can't possibly be too many more clear signs. What will it take? A statement from Firaxis saying: "Damn, we rushed this thing"? They can't say that. But they are leaving big footprints as they walk toward this deadline...and common sense is all we need to see that this looks more like a dog than anything else.

Nice post, Korn.

	10-09-2001 06:01									#19
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dog: (definition 8): one inferior of its kind: as a : an investment not worth its price b : an undesirable piece of merchandise

	10-09-2001 06:39									#20
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re: above

i meant "isn't" not is

	10-09-2001 06:43									#21
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thanks yin

all i'm trying to do is sound the alarm and tell people to expect that the early going with Civ3 will probably be really rough, and hopefully firaxis will devote the time to fixing it. if you are an early adopter of civ3 you had better be ready, because you will be paying to beta test...i have no problem paying to beta test, but if firaxis has no intention of fixing the problems that arose from rushing the game out the door then why even bother?

nearly every game today includes Multiplayer, and if civ3 was as on track as what everybody thinks then there would be absolutely no reason why multiplayer wouldn't be included, because not having multiplayer in civ3 will cost it sales, maybe not many but at least some

also there is more competition in the computer industry than ever, civ3 is no longer innovative game that civ was...it is one of many strategy games...look at the feature list for empire earth

quote: *Epic scope - spans over 500,000 years, from the discovery of fire to laser technology nd beyond. *14 different Epochs - replay all of human history or just the span of time that interests you. *Train more than 200 different kinds of units. *Battle on land, air, and sea - in addition to armies, you can build wide varieties of ships and aircraft. *Fight wars of the future with advanced robotic and anti-gravity units using secret weapons. *Enlist great historical Heroes - such as William the Conqueror and Patton - to enhance your military abilities. *Customize your military units by improving their strength or equipment. *Play in Standard mode for a more-strategic empire building game or Tournament mode for faster-paced action *Have your Prophets devastate opponents with Calamities such as hurricanes, earthquakes, and deadly plagues. *Engage in historic siege warfare - breach an enemy's walls with catapults, rams, and siege towers. *Increase the morale of your soldiers to improve their offensive and defensive capabilities. *Match wits with the cunning AI or coordinate attacks with your computer-player allies. *Construct 20 types of buildings and research 150 technologies. *A helpful technology tree foldout is included. *Temples, Universities, and other buildings provide additional defensive measures beyond walls and towers. *Create your own civilization from 100 different attributes or choose from 21 predefined civilizations. *Different paths to victory, including military conquest and constructing Wonders of the World. *Six different Wonders, each with its own special power. *Special effects such as a day/night cycle, weather, translucent water, smoke, and special attack effects. *Experience expertly balanced gameplay - each unit has its strengths and weaknesses. *Gather 5 different resources that vary in importance depending on your strategy. *Play four epic single-player campaigns that each follow a civilization's extraordinary rise to power. *Training scenarios guide you through the basics of game play. *Gorgeous random maps of various types and sizes for the ultimate replayablity. *Create your own original maps, scenarios, campaigns, and even in-game movies with the included editors.

basically Empire Earth is a RTS version of civ

then next year right around multiplayer comes out civ3 will have to compete with WarCraft 3, Age of Mythologies, MoO3, and EU2

so this no multiplayer in civ3 will hopefully be just a hoax and hopefully civ3 will be polished to perfection, but civ3 hit beta on Agust 23, and it will hit retail (if the various sites are correct) on october, 30, so civ3 will have about a seven or eight week beta, lets just hope that is enough time for them to catch all of the major glitches

	10-09-2001 11:58									#22
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quote: *Epic scope - spans over 500,000 years, from the discovery of fire to laser technology nd beyond.

i can have civ2 start at 500,000bc
it's the same as starting at 4,000bc

quote: *14 different Epochs - replay all of human history or just the span of time that interests you.

cut the game in 14 piecies with enough "distance" between them

quote: *Train more than 200 different kinds of units.

only?

quote: *Battle on land, air, and sea - in addition to armies, you can build wide varieties of ships and aircraft.

nothing new here

quote: *Fight wars of the future with advanced robotic and anti-gravity units using secret weapons.

already done in ctp1

quote: *Enlist great historical Heroes - such as William the Conqueror and Patton - to enhance your military abilities.

already done in ctp2, in harlan's alexander scenario

quote: *Customize your military units by improving their strength or equipment.

smac

quote: *Play in Standard mode for a more-strategic empire building game or Tournament mode for faster-paced action

wow, you now actually get the time to think about what you're doing

quote: *Have your Prophets devastate opponents with Calamities such as hurricanes, earthquakes, and deadly plagues.

ah, at last the power of prophets in human history is shown in this realistic historical game

quote: *Engage in historic siege warfare - breach an enemy's walls with catapults, rams, and siege towers.

cities can have walls and you can brake them!

quote: *Increase the morale of your soldiers to improve their offensive and defensive capabilities.

barracks

quote: *Match wits with the cunning AI or coordinate attacks with your computer-player allies.

a cunning AI

quote: *Construct 20 types of buildings and research 150 technologies.

so?

quote: *A helpful technology tree foldout is included.

just like civ1, civ2....

quote: *Temples, Universities, and other buildings provide additional defensive measures beyond walls and towers.

wow?

quote: *Create your own civilization from 100 different attributes or choose from 21 predefined civilizations.

100 attributes that each change your civ by 1%?

quote: *Different paths to victory, including military conquest and constructing Wonders of the World.

how about going to alpha centauri

quote: *Six different Wonders, each with its own special power.

six?

quote: *Special effects such as a day/night cycle, weather, translucent water, smoke, and special attack effects.

excuse me, am i going to "live" every single day from 500,000bc until today?

quote: *Experience expertly balanced gameplay - each unit has its strengths and weaknesses.

so not all units are the same! amazing idea!

quote: *Gather 5 different resources that vary in importance depending on your strategy.

how mant resources does civ3 have?

quote: *Play four epic single-player campaigns that each follow a civilization's extraordinary rise to power.

nothing new

quote: *Training scenarios guide you through the basics of game play.

nothing new

quote: *Gorgeous random maps of various types and sizes for the ultimate replayablity.

nothing new

quote: *Create your own original maps, scenarios, campaigns, and even in-game movies with the included editors.

nothing new

	10-09-2001 12:09									#23
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Mark here is the civ3 feature list, I wanna see your rundown of it

quote: *More interactions, alliances and realistic artificial intelligence responses put players in the middle of negotiations, trade systems and diplomatic actions. Advanced trade system to manage resources, trade routes and spread of technology. *Improved combat options provide finer levels of control for enhanced war-making capabilities. *Technologies, Wonders Of The World and Great People expand the scope of the game. *New elements of Culture, Nationality and the Arts help players plan a new peaceful pathway to victory. *Active world generator creates more realistic maps and organic terrain features. *The most detailed and beautiful art, animations and sound ever found in the genre. *Easier-to-use interface for streamlined management and better control.

	10-09-2001 12:18									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: *More interactions, alliances and realistic artificial intelligence responses put players in the middle of negotiations, trade systems and diplomatic actions. Advanced trade system to manage resources, trade routes and spread of technology.

better diplomacy than smac
trade is back and also better

quote: *Improved combat options provide finer levels of control for enhanced war-making capabilities.

extra level of veterans and armies create an iprovement over civ2 and smac

quote: *Technologies, Wonders Of The World and Great People expand the scope of the game.

indeed they do!
especiall on wonders, more and two kinds of them, with a connection to the resource model

quote: *New elements of Culture, Nationality and the Arts help players plan a new peaceful pathway to victory.

never such things where that important in a strategy game before

quote: *Active world generator creates more realistic maps and organic terrain features.

just look at those mountains!

quote: *The most detailed and beautiful art, animations and sound ever found in the genre.

one word: city view and palace

quote: *Easier-to-use interface for streamlined management and better control.

you have sid talking to you, what better interface feature do you need?

	10-09-2001 12:27									#25
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i thought you'd be a little more upbeat about it actually

you know what would be funny? if they had to cut out all of the game except for the Sid advisor who tries to convince you that you are actually playing the game

	10-09-2001 12:44									#26
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by korn469 you know what would be funny? if they had to cut out all of the game except for the Sid advisor who tries to convince you that you are actually playing the game

[yin mode]
jeff morris: hey Sid, infogrames doesnt like the idea with our faces on the advisors!
sid meier: OVER MY DEAD BODY!
[/yin mode]

	10-09-2001 17:32									#27
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korn - i am actually thinking about buying empire earth - it looks like a good game... of course civ3 comes first... and so does moo3... and, oh, what the hell, so does warcraft3....



no seriously it does look like a good game, its just coming out at the wrong time

	10-09-2001 20:45									#28
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Hey everyone check out my forum at delphi.

http://forums.delphi.com/PowerUser/start

	10-09-2001 22:05									#29
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quote: Originally posted by genghisvick Hey everyone check out my forum at delphi. http://forums.delphi.com/PowerUser/start

Nice site genghisvick, but you should really post this in the Off Topic Forum , since your site doesn't deal with the thread's topic - except for 3 of your posters who have stated that they wouldn't buy Civ3 since it's not their type of game.

	10-09-2001 22:22									#30
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I voted for Civ3 to be perfect in every way. Every thing I have read and saw points to this and the best thing that could have happen was no mulitplayer for 5 months. This means that Firaxis probaly never had any attention of wasting time on mulitplayer from the beginning and have instead spent all thier time on making Civ3 the best SP experince in gaming history.