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crowatbitemedotcom
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Texas
Dec 1999
time: 23:12
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When looking at this what strikes me is how important micromanaging your science is in the early game on OCC. If you are producing 7 or 8 science beakers by the time you're on the 5th tech, and you have 44 beakers saved up you will waste a lot when you discover the 6th tech. Smack me on the forehead but I didn't think of this before... I obviously need to micromanage my city much better if I hope to improve my game, although in my latest game I should be to AC by 1930 or so (with no competition from the AI), thanks to getting 3 early trade routes with Technochitlan, which has been the #2 city throughout the game. Let me repeat what Paul has said and say that if you are not getting the trade routes early, you need to do this. I had all three of my trade routes by 20AD (previously I had them by about 1000AD), and it helped shave about 50 years off my game. Obviously I have a lot of improving to do, but that was a big step in the right direction.
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Sten Sture
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SF, CA don't call it frisco... Striker!!
Mar 1999
time: 21:12
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CtG - excellent as always! At the end of your first list of data, someone posted a close approximation of the formula, check it out.
Smash - here is the cumulative. Shows how important the early govt improvements are...(totally illegible - sorry)
Tech__Lg___Sum____Small__Sum_____Sm/Lg__Tot/Tot
1____12_____12_____10_____10______83%___83%
2____26_____38_____18_____28______69%___74%
3____45_____83_____27_____55______60%___66%
4____60____143_____36_____91______60%___64%
5____75____218_____45____136______60%___62%
6 102 320 66 202 65% 63%
7 126 446 84 286 67% 64%
8 144 590 96 382 67% 65%
9 180 770 108 490 60% 64%
10 210 980 130 620 62% 63%
11 231 1,211 143 763 62% 63%
12 264 1,475 168 931 64% 63%
13 299 1,774 195 1,126 65% 63%
14 350 2,124 224 1,350 64% 64%
15 390 2,514 240 1,590 62% 63%
16 432 2,946 272 1,862 63% 63%
17 459 3,405 289 2,151 63% 63%
18 540 3,945 342 2,493 63% 63%
19 589 4,534 380 2,873 65% 63%
20 820 5,354 520 3,393 63% 63%
21 903 6,257 588 3,981 65% 64%
22 946 7,203 616 4,597 65% 64%
23 989 8,192 644 5,241 65% 64%
24 1080 9,272 672 5,913 62% 64%
25 1125 10,397 700 6,613 62% 64%
26 1170 11,567 728 7,341 62% 63%
27 1242 12,809 783 8,124 63% 63%
28 1288 14,097 812 8,936 63% 63%
29 1334 15,431 841 9,777 63% 63%
30 1440 16,871 930 10,707 65% 63%
31 1488 18,359 961 11,668 65% 64%
32 1536 19,895 992 12,660 65% 64%
33 1680 21,575 1056 13,716 63% 64%
34 1700 23,275 1088 14,804 64% 64%
35 1760 25,035 1120 15,924 64% 64%
36 1872 26,907 1188 17,112 63% 64%
37 1942 28,849 1221 18,333 63% 64%
38 1976 30,825 1254 19,587 63% 64%
39 2028 32,853 1287 20,874 63% 64%
40 2080 34,933 1320 22,194 63% 64%
41 2132 37,065 1353 23,547 63% 64%
42 2310 39,375 1470 25,017 64% 64%
43 2365 41,740 1505 26,522 64% 64%
44 2420 44,160 1540 28,062 64% 64%
45 2520 46,680 1620 29,682 64% 64%
46 2576 49,256 1656 31,338 64% 64%
47 2632 51,888 1692 33,030 64% 64%
48 2784 54,672 1776 34,806 64% 64%
49 2842 57,514 1813 36,619 64% 64%
50 2900 60,414 1850 38,469 64% 64%
51 3060 63,474 1938 40,407 63% 64%
52 3120 66,594 1976 42,383 63% 64%
53 3180 69,774 2014 44,397 63% 64%
54 3294 73,068 2106 46,503 64% 64%
55 3355 76,423 2145 48,648 64% 64%
56 3416 79,839 2184 50,832 64% 64%
57 3591 83,430 2280 53,112 63% 64%
58 3654 87,084 2320 55,432 63% 64%
59 3717 90,801 2360 57,792 63% 64%
60 3900 94,701 2460 60,252 63% 64%
61 3965 98,666 2501 62,753 63% 64%
62 4030 102,696 2542 65,295 63% 64%
63 4158 106,854 2646 67,941 64% 64%
64 4224 111,078 2688 70,629 64% 64%
65 4290 115,368 2730 73,359 64% 64%
66 4422 119,790 2838 76,197 64% 64%
67 4489 124,279 2881 79,078 64% 64%
68 4556 128,835 2924 82,002 64% 64%
69 4830 133,665 3036 85,038 63% 64%
70 4900 138,565 3080 88,118 63% 64%
71 4970 143,535 3124 91,242 63% 64%
72 5112 148,647 3240 94,482 63% 64%
73 5183 153,830 3285 97,767 63% 64%
74 5254 159,084 3330 101,097 63% 64%
75 5400 164,484 3450 104,547 64% 64%
76 5472 169,956 3496 108,043 64% 64%
77 5544 175,500 3542 111,585 64% 64%
78 5850 181,350 3744 115,329 64% 64%
79 5925 187,275 3792 119,121 64% 64%
80 6000 193,275 3840 122,961 64% 64%
81 6156 199,431 3888 126,849 63% 64%
82 6232 205,663 3936 130,785 63% 64%
83 6308 211,971 3984 134,769 63% 64%
84 6552 218,523 4200 138,969 64% 64%
85 6630 225,153 4250 143,219 64% 64%
86 6708 231,861 4300 147,519 64% 64%
87 6786 238,647 4350 151,869 64% 64%
88 6864 245,511 4400 156,269 64% 64%
89 6942 252,453 4450 160,719 64% 64%
90 7290 259,743 4680 165,399 64% 64%
[This message has been edited by Sten Sture (edited August 15, 2000).]
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BIG PROBLEM!
It doesn't depend only on map size! I discovered this when I played Sten's 4 whale map. The map is mostly jungles, hills, "lakes," with very little open grasslands. The beaker totals appeared to be as you've listed.
Then I played another game with a (small) map that had lots of plains and grasslands. I already had 5 (Alp, Bro, Cer, Mas, and Wri) and researching CoL was 84 beakers (same as for the 7th tech on your list). Off the top of my head I can remember I had 837, 925, 1175, 1584 or 1588, etc which don't appear on the list.
Terrain somehow effects research rates!!!
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SandMonkey
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don Don -
in you're second game (the one that had the weird beaker amounts), did you start in a bad place? i find it rather odd that you were given 5 techs, and yet the world was grasslands and plains. My understanding was that you were given starting techs to help compensate for your starting position.
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SandMonkey
"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson
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No, I didn't mean that was my starting tech. I started with none, but I had those five (from huts and contact with another civ) when I founded my city.
The other numbers weren't sequential, they're just ones that stuck in my mind for some reason. I hadn't read these data threads before, so I wasn't trying to compile a list. I never thought of compiling a list because when I micromg the research I rarely see the same numbers in different games. I assumed it was dependent on numerous factors.
CtG,
If you want, I'll go back thru the saves of my current game and compile a partial list (probably Monday).
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That's a definite yes—I just got proof in action. I was researching Astro in a OCC game and got the Zulus made their no-scribes-allowed announcement that they had discovered Seafaring. I had previously made a note that I needed 378 beakers, and after the announcement the requirement dropped to 360 beakers!
OK, CtG, You want stats I have some. I compared my current game to data from saves of a previous game on a map with similar terrain and civs with these results: code:
Adv # Game 1 Game 2
6 84 84
7 - 99
8 - -
9 144 144
10 170 170
11 187 187
12 216 216
13 - -
14 - 283
15 315 315
16 - 351
17 374 374
18 - 378 initially
360 after Zulu discovery
19 399 389
20 600 620
21 651 -
22 682 Phil 682 Phil
23 (free) (free)
24 744 768
The data is incomplete, but obviously the incremental increase is no integer multiple of the new advance number. CtG was generating his data by giving the advances in cheat mode while the sizes of the civs stayed constant and the competing civs did not advance. Perhaps that is why his data yielded to superficial regression analysis.
In my current game while I was researching Astro the Zulus made their discovery and my requirement dropped. They at first refused to trade, but after I discovered Astro they decided they wanted Trade from me and I got Seafaring. Doh, I forgot that it makes a huge jump from 19 to 20! Now Literacy increased from needing 389 to 620! I was saved because somehow the French suddenly discovered Republic and so I traded with them and got both Lit and Rep. (That's why I have no data on how much #21 cost for this game.)
As a side note, when the Chinese made a discovery of something I already had my research requirement didn't change. Also, I was researching Lit when the French discovered Rep. My 620 beaker requirement didn't change, perhaps because I wasn't researching an advance that nobody else had (the French had Lit).
[This message has been edited by don Don (edited January 13, 2000).]
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SandMonkey
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I found something of little interest...
I checked the number of beakers needed (so far) on King level (which i play on, so sue me!). I thought they were kind of interesting. I have only gone through 12 turns, but the intervals are kinda strange, or at least they are to me.
Advance# turns needed
1 10
2 18
3 24
4 32
5 40
6 54
7 63
8 80
9 99
10 120
11 132
12 156
they are all nice, round numbers, but the intervals are weird.
Advance Intervals
0-1 --
1-2 8
2-3 6
3-4 8
4-5 8
5-6 14
6-7 9
7-8 17
8-9 19
9-10 21
10-11 12
11-12 24
(Interval being the difference from one turn to the next)
Does this look odd to anyone? or am i just looking at soemthing obvious to all but me?
------------------
SandMonkey
"Shut up brain or I'll stab you with a qtip"
-Homer Simpson
[This message has been edited by SandMonkey (edited January 10, 2000).]
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debeest
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Sandmonkey, your question is one of the few things I've figured out for myself. The number of beakers needed for the next advance is almost always an integer multiple of the tech number. As the number of techs goes up, so does the integer, but not with every advance. So the first tech (in a mid-size world) is 1 x 10, the next one is 2 x 11, the next one is 3 x 11, and the 10th one might be 10 x 12 (as in your post). The "interval" is just a function of that, and that's why it looks random.
As has been so widely noted, the beaker cost of an advance depends partly on your position relative to the AI. That manifests itself as a reduction in the integer multiplier: e.g., the AI gains a tech, and your cost for tech #10 goes from 10 x 12 to 10 x 11. I haven't been able to study the relative-position issue very well yet. The OCC-ers tout the importance of giving away tech in order to keep your own tech cost low, but I rarely find any change in my cost when I give away civs. I'm pretty sure there's no change unless an AI civ gains an advance that none of the other AI civs have. I'd love to be further enlightened.
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debeest
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Forgot to mention: starting techs don't count. If you get three free to start the game, then #4 costs 1 x 10, #5 costs 2 x 11, #6 costs 3 x 11, etc.
Note: these costs for techs 1, 2, 3 are from deity level, while your 10 x 12 is king. At deity, tech #10 is probably more like 10 x 15, I don't remember offhand.
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debeest
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Caesar, the number of civ (advances) certainly does make a difference. If you meant, the number of civilizations doesn't matter, I think you're right.
The AI civilizations' technological level clearly does matter. More AI tech means cheaper tech for you. I just haven't been able to determine exactly how the relationship works.
Your proposed explanations don't account for the change in the number-of-beakers-needed.
Note that the example you just quoted is consistent with my explanation: 378 = 18 x 21, and it dropped to 360 = 18 x 20.
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Caesar
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Rome, Heart of the Roman Empire
Oct 2000
time: 05:12
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Note the words From what I've seen
It is very likely that I am wrong, but that was based solely on my observations. I will try to create other controlled expirements to see wether or not this is true, if so then to what extent.
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SlowThinker
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homeless, Praha, Czech Republic
Jan 2000
time: 06:12
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{advances}
{beakers count}
{}{SlowThinker}{end1}
------------------------------
This is a post with keywords. See The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread.
This thread has got to the top of the forum because of this post. It may be a very old thread.
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08-01-2000 02:49
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