13-09-2001 00:05									#1
	Little help on a faction idea? Tired of ads?

Hi there! Hope you'll welcome a forum newbie well for his first post and a little request for suggestions .

I have plain ol' vanilla Smac, patch four, and have started fiddling
with the faction files to try to create something new and interesting. I'm having trouble getting one of my more (imho) creative ideas to fit with the other factions.

Specifically, I need a way to balance out what I think is simultaneously a *massive* disadvantage and possibly an advantage in some aspects.

My idea is a Yang replacement, something that might even give our good chairman nightmares. A faction based truely on *mind control* - the main distinguishing feature is that punishment spheres are popped into every base. This, I know, gives a very large hit to research potential, but what might be the other aspects of this that I can't see? Just what use are specialists, and how do I counteract their absense?

I'm thinking social pluses in efficiency and perhaps support, impunity thought control. Minuses? They'd never *need* police, so anything there would be pointless. Economy would put a double hurt on research.

I'll welcome any thoughts - and ask one final question. Is giving a faction a default facility really possible without giving them the tech for it? Punishment Spheres come with a C4, and that's just too strong to have from game start. It also tends to make the AI angry that you don't give it to them right off the bat.

"Through the methodology of what has been crudely called brain washing, the people can be indoctrinated into proper social behaviour from childhood. My people are completely content: they work, relax, breed, and think in perfect understanding of our communal goals. It is their greatest joy to simply serve, and what can be wrong with a society in which joy and societal conscience is perfectly blended?"

-- Leader Jasper Stanley
"An aesthetic approach"

	13-09-2001 01:32									#2
	Isn't this meant to be in the Creation forum? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

One, isn't this meant to be in the Creation section?

Two, look up the Borg in the Apolyton SMAC section - you'll find them under files/factions. Also visit http://networknode.org .

Three, possibly giving them a PLANET (planetmind objects to their rule?) or EFFIC (inefficient 'elitism' methods) or GROWTH (monitored citizens and carefully regulated).

	13-09-2001 22:32									#3
	Well, true.. Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

It's also half a strategy question.

As in, what're the advantages and disadvantages of having punishment spheres in every base, and how do you use them or counteract them respectively?

Some things I can think of..

Never having to build psych enhancing facilities: Excellent
Half labs cut: Terrible!
No Specialists: ?

Social engineering choices that put a hurt on police are without bad consequences. It's like we have either a +1 or +2 probe but defensively only. And so on, and so on..

I'm thinking I have to nix democracy as a choice - what does
that do?

	14-09-2001 02:14									#4
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I actually like your idea much better than the borg factions, its much more realistic

	14-09-2001 05:25									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Growth is the most realistic penalty. Don't overkill, though, as it is a very powerful category. +1 Probe might make sense as well.

Bonuses in Efficiency (mindless laborers) and Industry (same) would be good as well.

	14-09-2001 05:34									#6
	Put an end to popups!

Personally, I would see mindless laborers as a penalty in efficiency. Seeing as both Planned and Police state come with Eff penalties, and Green and Demo with bonuses, I think that Firaxis would agree with me.

	14-09-2001 05:38									#7
	ideas from a Hive builder Put an end to popups!

I hear that P.Spheres when given as a free facility do NOT halve research, this means you may do that part yourself (use the tech cost multiplier, double it so tech costs twice as much, or give a massive ----RESEARCH).

Specialists are key to getting (good) energy for the Hive, they are still usable in PS bases, the only penalty being halved research output. But technicians and especially Engineers are great in a PS base with an energy bank and treefarm (they produce 6 cash per turn, which is worth 3 minerals in a rushbuy)

Given a Hive + PS sphere faction I would probably not bother with research much, and just steal it. I would maybe have a science base or 3, with all the science improvments and as many libarians as possible, these bases are to suplement my tech stealing, sometimes techs like Neural Grafting just dont get researched by the AI.

Because the PS's would eliminate the need for drone control, I could safely ignore the HGP and VW, and instead focus my resources on bagging the WeatherP. and build a heap of condensors everywhere to take advantage of the growth potential, once I put some specialists to work I would have some cash, later when Eco.Eng comes along masses of boreholes would come on-line, providing a HUGE mineral output.

An alternate strategy is to bag the Command Nexus and do the obvious with such a faction; clobber your neighbours. To tone down both strategies I suggest not starting with doc:Loyalty, meaning they wouldn't start with PS (for former support) or the ability to build the CN. An alternate starting tech to consider would be Planetary Networks, because of the existing network of control. However the early probe teams might be much too powerfull.

The faction could look something like this:
-2 Economy: {same as hive}
+1 Industry: {same as hive}
+1 Growth: {same as hive}
Free PS in every base
Doubled Tech costs: {add the PS negative manually - this need not be mentioned in the datalinks}
Free Perimeter defense: {Same as hive}
Free Former: {It could be 20 years before they get Cent.Eco, which is awfull on a dry world - consider, unless they get a river, monolith or energy resoure the hive gets just ONE energy per turn until they have some forests}
Free tech: I suggest:
Biogenetics: {Provides basis of mind control, also rec tanks would allow bases to grow to size 3 on forest, and provide +1 energy per base}
or Applied Physics/Doctrine:Mobilty {Go out and hurt people - I'd prefer a builder tech myself}

This would mean they can atleast do something while waiting for tech, with one former to plant forests and bases can build Rec.Tanks if not building colony pods - thse rec tanks would allow bases to grow to size 3 on forest, thus taking advantage of the PS on transcend.

	14-09-2001 20:04									#8
	Re: ideas from a Hive builder Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Blake Because the PS's would eliminate the need for drone control, I could safely ignore the HGP and VW, and instead focus my resources on bagging the WeatherP. . . . [snip] An alternate strategy is to bag the Command Nexus and do the obvious with such a faction; clobber your neighbours. . . . [snip] The faction could look something like this: -2 Economy: {same as hive} +1 Industry: {same as hive} +1 Growth: {same as hive} Free PS in every base Doubled Tech costs: {add the PS negative manually - this need not be mentioned in the datalinks} Free Perimeter defense: {Same as hive} Free Former: {It could be 20 years before they get Cent.Eco, which is awfull on a dry world - consider, unless they get a river, monolith or energy resoure the hive gets just ONE energy per turn until they have some forests} Free tech: I suggest: Biogenetics: {Provides basis of mind control, also rec tanks would allow bases to grow to size 3 on forest, and provide +1 energy per base} or Applied Physics/Doctrine:Mobilty {Go out and hurt people - I'd prefer a builder tech myself}

Blake, I like your take and analysis on this faction and the strategy to make it work. However, it would seem that free PS and Perimeters would call for further negatives for balance. Sure, research penalty would be a major hindrance but that is slightly offset by the eliminated need to control drones.

A possible balancing approach would be restriction against Democracy. Beside being logical, consider its effect: no pop-booming! With the PS, GA's are impossible for that extra push (creche+Planned+1=+5 and not quite enough).

	14-09-2001 20:45									#9
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Good discussion!
Well, I've wracked my brain and come up with a Beta form for
my guys.

The Communal Nexus (The Brainwasher)
Through the methodology of what has been crudely called brain washing, the people can be indoctrinated into proper social behaviour from childhood. My people are completely content: they work, relax, breed, and think in perfect understanding of our communal goals. It is their greatest joy to simply serve, and what can be wrong with a society in which joy and societal conscience is perfectly blended?

-- Leader Stanley Skyne
"An aesthetic approach"

May not use Democratic Politics (No ability to choose independantly)
Free Punishment Sphere in every base (Indoctrination Facilities)
Research cost doubled (manual side effect of PSes, as well as result of lack of independant thought - how well can a nerve stapled drone theorize?)
Free tech: Biogenetics and Social Psych (basis of mind control).
-2 Economy (Little individual need to compete in commerce)
+1 Probe (How do you brainwash or find double agents in this society?)
+1 Industry (Citizens have a hard work ethic)
+1 Morale (Mindlessly determined troops)

Taken all together, this leads I think to something Miriam-esque.
A good war machine, good probe defense and fair offense but
with little money to take advantage of it. The advantages in
money are no need to *ever* have drone control facilities.
Technologically, this faction is like having an independant
'tech stag' switch just for your lil lonesome self..

I'll be playtesting this out - I have a feeling I've mixed up bad
early game penalties with a great middle game war machine.

Anybody want the text file for my base names and dialogue?

	15-09-2001 22:30									#10
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Blackavar, I would be willing to playtest it. Please send the faction files zipped to northswordsman@yahoo.com, please. I will give you feedback on how it goes. Thanks!