07-03-2001 00:47									#1
	City Razing Problem Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I go to all the trouble of poisoning and sabotaging city walls so that I can cleanse land of AI cities - and eliminate launching points for attacks. Anyway, sometimes the population decreases with each of my unit's victories and sometimes it doesn't. It gets even more sometimey when the city gets to size 1. Anybody know what's going on?

	07-03-2001 00:57									#2
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If a city has city walls population wont be affected by won battles.

	07-03-2001 01:00									#3
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Also, you must attack with land units (not planes or ships) to reduce population.

	07-03-2001 01:24									#4
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I know when a walless(?) size 1 city doesn't have any defenders inside I have to move a ground unit in to raze it - and this isn't even guaranteed and I end up stuck with an undefendable city waiting for anengineer/ settler to get cheap enough for me to buy. Anyway, with a defender inside, I can attack with planes, boats, or trains and the population will decrease - most times. But like I say, sometimes not???

In fact, it's kind of cool sometimetimes. It's like the AI "realizes": "Hey, this sucker isn't trying to take me, he's just bombing me into oblivion" - and it'll stop putting defenders in the city for awhile.

	07-03-2001 03:22									#5
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That is a good question.Maybe a rephrase.

Why does an undefended size 1 city sometimes raze and sometimes you can capture it?.Walls or no walls.

thats a poor rephrase.

Anyway I think I know why just as I hit submit.

As you eliminate citizens from attacks,the city's food box gets smaller.ie-size 4 box is bigger than size 3.As the box gets smaller,the food amount stays the same.The result is a half full size 4 foodbox becomes a full size 1 food box for example.If the box is full,you capture.Less than full=razed.The game does food first in its calculation,IIRC.You enter city,calculations are done done,results are displayed.

How does that sound?


nope thats not it.Something like that though.Interestingly I found the # of food actually increases as the population drops.My test had a size 3 with 16 food.1st attack-size 2 with 18-2nd attack-size 1 with full box(20)
[This message has been edited by Smash (edited March 06, 2001).]

	07-03-2001 15:00									#6
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I always believed that air attack reduced population if from the land side and did not if from the sea side .. in related news - anyone else noticed that barbs can always capture a size 1 city?

------------------
Scouse Git[1]

"Staring at your screen in horror and disbelief when you open a saved game is one of the fun things of a succession game " - Hueij
"The Great Library must be built!"
"A short cut has to be challenging,
were it not so it would be 'the way'." - Paul Craven
[This message has been edited by Scouse Gits (edited March 07, 2001).]

	07-03-2001 17:35									#7
	Get a bigger avatar today!

SG(1)

Yes. Near the start of my current game I watched the barbs take a neighbouring A1's size one city. I'm pretty sure it wasn't a city which was due to go to size two because it had only just been founded.

It made me think I have maybe been missing the occasional "run away, run away" opportunity when barbs turn up inconveniently early. I had assumed that a size one city would be extinguished upon falling to the barbs and so I think there must have been times I have simply left my warriors to die valiantly (and to take the city down with them).

Seemingly, moving out of even a size one city would preserve it.

You would need to be ready with a plan to deal with the barbs generated within the city. I watched the barb city grow rapidly to size three (they don't delay growth by building any settlers). The A1 isn't much pestered by barb attacks (although things seem more evenly matched when it is doing the attacking) but a human player would be hard pressed to hold them off early daws if he or she hadn't the wherewithall to bribe.

Come to think of it, there must be quite a little bundle of tactics around this situation. I rather think that I may actually have responded to the appearance of nearby barbs by moving a unit towards, and into, an undefended size one city. Bearing in mind how much more effective it is for the human player to attack a barb than to defend against him it may sometimes pay to hold back, let the undefended city fall, hang around for it to grow to size two and then attack. I have a suspicion barbs don't fortify themselves in cities. If the city is shield rich enough to churn out a unit in the meantime it will assuredly emerge in search of plunder rather than sitting tight to defend. Which will afford a chance to pick it off. But the unit which originally takes the city seemingly stays engrossed with its looting and pillaging activities and never sallies forth. So a horseman could hang around with impunity waiting for the moment to strike.

Might all take a bit of timing.

By the by, in another thread I mentioned that when you bribe a city back it is cheap and you sometimes get a little treasure trove of units. I forgot to mention one unit often found - a diplo (converted barb chief). In fact you can even get two because barb bands quite like temporarily visiting the flesh pots of a barb city.

I bribed that A1 city in my current game and, IIRC, the price was a massive 49g . Less than the cost of one of the archers which came with it (although they are not "nones").

	09-03-2001 00:50									#9
	Remove this text

Thanks, you've definitely given me some stuff to check-out. The food box thing might not be exactly as you conjectured SG but something like that could explain it. Likewise the sea/land thing; it's just that I could've sworn that I've attacked with boats and watched the population decrease. Oh well, I'll find out by and by. Thanks again.

	12-03-2001 23:30									#10
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While I would've sworn that I'd gotten population decreases from naval barrages, I would've been wrong. Tried it and their was no decrease. Likewise air attack from sea side, no decrease; from the land side, decrease. Thanks again.

	13-03-2001 20:31									#12
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Here is "Poisoning and sabotaging": www.apolyton.net/forums/forum3/001649.html

	13-03-2001 20:49									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Second try: www.apolyton.net/forums/Forum3/HTML/001649.html

	13-03-2001 20:55									#14
	Increase Your PM Length

It is definitely case sensitive. Sorry.
If you are in a hurry, you just read post#2: advice.

	15-03-2001 10:49									#15
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yes i agree with dave here...... most times my size one cities are destroyed..... if only they captured them things would be so much better

	15-03-2001 16:22									#16
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If you want to destry a small city, i think it's possible to disband this city (you must not have any units in it and select the city then disband her).

But this is some time that I haven't play to Civ2 ... So I may be wrong.

	15-04-2001 17:59									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

{combat system}
{attack and reduced population} {city capturing)
{}{SlowThinker}{end2}

------------------------------
This is a post with keywords. See a thread The Great Library: a hierarchical structure" thread.

	21-04-2001 01:51									#19
	Put an end to popups!

Yes, I have witnessed barbs take an empty size one city twice recently. They don't raze it. I also know (and I'm sure La Fayette reinforces) that you can't poison the last point out of a city. The AI is not programmed about this fine point, however. It will poison a size one city over and over if it's the aggressive type.

	08-10-2001 06:10									#20
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Can anybody post a savefile where a city of size 1 isn't razed? I never saw it.

	08-10-2001 08:23									#21
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I, too, have seen barbarians capture a size 1 city. Many times at that. No save games to show it, tho.

	08-10-2001 09:41									#22
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

here is one

Attachment: barb.sav.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	09-10-2001 04:08									#23
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Thank you Smash.

But did anybody see a non-AI (i.e. human) capturing of a city of size 1?

	09-10-2001 12:31									#24
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette quote: In fact you are wrong. The only way to destroy a city size one all by yourself is to rushbuild a settler. I had problems in disbanding a city after I've got the Pyramids. Is it related to the food box?