17-04-2001 19:40									#32
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Your discovery that the existence of a barracks improves healing in the city's forts, Slow Thinker, seems to me very useful.

Like everyone else I tend to build a barracks only in cities which are likely to undergo prolonged seige and in a shield rich heartland city from where I pump out units subsequently re-homed around the empire.

Your discovery means that there are going to be some extra cases of border cities where a baracks is worthwhile so as to aid the units on duty in the forts.

Perhaps more importantly I have tended to build forts in important remote choke points not cities. But if the choke point is important enough it may be that I should build a city behind the fort so as to support the defenders in the fort with a barracks.

Anyway, a nice point to have brought to light. Your research grant should go up next year.

	17-04-2001 19:47									#33
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[quote]Originally posted by East Street Trader on 04-17-2001 10:40 AM
But if the choke point is important enough it may be that I should build a city behind the fort so as to support the defenders in the fort with a barracks.

quote]

I have certainly read advice (on Apolyton or elsewhere) to build your city on the choke point! I think the logic was that City Walls are better than fortifying (not sure if this is true).

	17-04-2001 20:59									#34
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Personally i prefer a fort to a city at a chokepoint as then you don't have to worry as much about dips and spies. If you place a city in a chokepoint a spy can sabatoge the walls and/or barracks then easily take the city or they can bribe the city or even steal techs. Thus i think forts are better for chokepoints especially since you can get the benifit of barracks if the fort is within the radius of a city with barracks.

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[This message has been edited by Mixam (edited April 17, 2001).]

	18-04-2001 00:22									#35
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East Street Trader,
I believe many people discovered it earlier. I thought it is generally known. But if there is no Great Library...

I agree with Mixiam.

A try to make a summary (Marquis de Sodaq, a "short tips" section for your info:... thread?):

Advantages of a city:
higher defense factor of walls
higher effectivity of barracks
the enemy don't know units inside

Advantage (superadvantage) of a fortress:
bribing resistance

	19-04-2001 09:46									#36
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Of course I forgot to mention that having your chokepoint be your capital will aleviate some of these problems as if i would want my capital at the edge of my empire. However capital is more resistant to sabatoge/stealing techs and cannot be bought. Nevertheless I think a fort is better.

ST. Exactly how well does a barracks heal units in a fort within city radius and does it matter where in the city radius (the edge or touching the city for example)?

	19-04-2001 00:43									#37
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Mixiam,
Hm, I never tested it EXACTLY in the fortress...

I think that a square 7x7 (midpoint(=city) excluded) has an identical healing ability.

But somebody could verify my tests...

	19-04-2001 03:21									#38
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I have updated my post "posted April 16, 2001 06:28".

	19-04-2001 04:53									#39
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Thanks ST

I skipped over that post of yours when i was reading this string I was kinda tired and saw a whole bunch of percentages. Numbers confuse me early in the morning.

So I took another gander at it and now the barracks info made sense but I am still confused by the port stuff why is there two percentages? Like 0%/10%?

PS Name is Mixam not Mixiam
Real name is Curtis nice to meet you

	19-04-2001 15:22									#40
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Curtis, sorry for the misspelling.

"/" separates naval/aerial part

	19-04-2001 16:54									#41
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A couple of extra (though perhaps less significant) disadvantages to the city are the time and cost of getting the walls up and the fact that the settler/engineer used to found may have a more effective use. (As for example, bearing the barracks point in mind and subject to terrain, founding on a more potentially productive site in the hinterland of the choke point fort.)

I cannot resist recounting a sad setback which I have just suffered in my current game. I had a marvellous choke point which was keeping the Mongols a good comfortable distance off and which guaranted me the opportunity of expanding into this excellent intervening land with plenty of specials and a simply enormous river leading straight towards the Mongol heartland on the other side of the choke point.

They had kindly built a hill fort at the site and had garrisoned the fort with a legion. But when my own legion entrenched itself on the hills next door the Mongols would not tolerate that and attacked. They died of course allowing my legion to move in. I marched a second legion and a dip over and felt smug.

Later they sneak attacked the fort and destroyed one legion with a cat (the sneak attack bonus at work I think, if it is proved to exist). The second legion saw off its attacker but was injured.

I was faced with two units left next to my fort which I could bribe with my dip. The cat (just barely still in one piece as a result of my deceased legion's stout defending) was sat on hills and a newly arrived and uninjured elly sat on flatland.

The dip spoke to each and established their price. They each wanted about 180 to 190 gold and my Republican treasury could cheerfully afford both. But just before I went ahead I said to myself, well an elly is soon going to be a pretty redundant unit (Gunpowder imminent) why spend so much? The cat will go on being useful and has enough fire power, once repaired to hit units venturing onto the hills next to the fort.

So I used the remaining legion to kill the elly (my legion dropping into the red while doing so) and bought in the cat.

HORRORS. Buying in the cat revealed another Mongol legion and another Mongol elly! I surveyed the scene. My dip was now toast, sitting next to the powerful Mongol units and having used up his two movement points moving into the cat's hill square. The cat could retreat into the temporary safety of the hill fort but would be attacked before it had time to repair itself. The legion would not, badly hurt, keep the Mongol units at bay. Pathetically, I sued for peace but no dice. A caravan was in the vicinity but, healthy as [i]that[i/] unit was, it would need to be lucky to see off the elly or legion once attacked even in the hill fort (in the event it very nearly did, but crucially not quite ).

So consider. Had I bought in the elly followed by the cat, I would have had a serviceable legion sat in the fort plus a healthy elly. I would have moved the cat in with time to repair itself. In all likelihood the dip, having used one movement point in bribing the elly would not have moved into the hills when bribing the cat and hence would have stayed safe and able to bribe again or to move back into the fort next turn. So I would have had plenty of resource available to deal with the Mongol units as they came on. The caravan would have continued on its peaceful and potentialy profitable way. My healthy bank balance would have dropped but by less than 400 gold and the hill fort choke point would have been mine to this day. As it is, I lost the caravan, the NONE vet legion, the bribed cat, 180 odd gold, the dip and, crucially, the splendid choke point.

I could not but think that my decision making had failed to star!!

As a final comment I suppose this exposes another small point in the city -v- fort debate. You can use the city screen to get news of enemy unts within the city's area which are not in sight on the main screen. So I wouldn't have made the same blunder.

Conceivably there is another benefit in that if you keep the city at size one you won't have to re-take it if it is lost to frontal assault. If I'm going to try to get that choke point back I face having to attack the hill fort which is, of course, still there.

	19-04-2001 18:26									#42
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EST took me a while to figure out elly meant elephant. Was just gunna ask when i figured it out. I remember a time when i played on king or Prince. They AI diplos wheren't a prob then. I didn't notice them bribing or even sabatoging ever till i hit Emporer. I remeber staring in horrer at the screen the first time one of my cities was bought!

ST are you sure 0%/10% healing on normal square for naval/air unit? I am sure naval units heal cause sometimes i put them to sleep till they do heal. And I don't know how air units can heal, as most would die if left out. I think you have it backwards.

	19-04-2001 19:31									#43
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The elly is a unit I rarely build but some of the warmongers love them. I do like their trumpeting noise in the sound effects.

Yes, losing a city to bribery can be quite a blow. But you can bribe back at a bargain price (half price because the city used to be your own and a low base price too if the A1 dip was operating far away from his capital) and sometimes even make a profit on the deal if you get a bunch of A1 units thrown in. You also get an advance if the A1 civ has any available.

Watch out for them bribing units. They can do it (once you're well ahead) with units other than dips/spies. So if you've got some units in remote locations holding down good choke points or sat on mountains next to A1 cities try getting a second unit out to make a stack. I find dips are good units to send. They are relatively cheap at 30 shields, have two movement points, need no maintenance, don't cause happiness problems in representative gov.t and their ability to bribe and ignoring ZOC can be useful features which you find opportunities to use while they fulfil the primary object of keeping the defender well and truly indoctrinated.

	21-04-2001 05:24									#45
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EST,

The crying shame in your decision-making blunder was that you were penny-wise and pound foolish, when considering which unit to buy, thoughts about the long term use of teh unit should not have been a consideration. O(nly the safety of teh chokepoint should have been a consideration.

It is very noraml after buyibgg a unit ot find other units nearby and so itwould be wise to consider this and to emphasize buying healthy 2-move units...

	21-04-2001 07:08									#46
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If any final discoveries are made, and they should go into the Combat thread, please let me know by posting the results there. If they warrant their own thread, that's fine, too.

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"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon
[This message has been edited by Marquis de Sodaq (edited April 20, 2001).]

	23-04-2001 03:35									#47
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EST... i thouroughly enjoyed reading about your blunder

We have all made them in one way shape or form. My cousin does a complete log of all his moves including barb attacks and amount of damage done with units ect. Makes for an interesting read later by civ fans but a tedious approach.

I believe he has a 345 page manuscript of one large map civ game which he then turned into a story. A complete log (and i mean complete) is half the battle. Its seems like fun to remember triumphs and losses and the trials and tribulations of a civ game.......

Even cooler on paper! By the way you described the even i would guess that you could dictate a story with relative ease