13-09-2001 12:04									#1
	Diada? (Jay Bee) Increase the size of your Attachments

Hi Jay, as you can see I have accepted your invitation. I have read again what I said about the Diada, and I said nothing specifically about that. I only meant that nowadays nobody is suffering any prosecution in Cataluña (maybe Spanish speakers right now, if you read Spanish, or Catalonian (La Vanguardia)newspapers you will see that is very difficult to study in Spanish over there). What I can not stand from people that do not have problems and live in democratic countries (the autonomic statute is the most advanced in Europe) is that they really do not have the guts to do something to achieve independence if they want it so bad, and I do not mean violence, but quite the opposite, I mean the way of Ghandi, sit down and do not move a finger until a referendum about independence has been taken. This I recognize will not work in a no democratic country, but in Spain, and the rest of the EU it will. But to have success they will really have to be at least 70% of the people, and have the guts (to kill, and follow the way of violence is much easier) to suffer in their pockets, but that will show the world their resolve, and if they do it I will applaud their independent country. As you see I am not nationalist, but I think that the best thing of Spain nowadays is democracy, and not its history. If I have to pay homage to my ancestors I will do it by taking advantage of the most valuable thing they gave, my life. May people can forget about their history or ancestors names, for many reasons, nobody told them etc, but one thing you can be sure is that you are here because them (whoever they are) struggled and were here too. I hope I did not got to solemn.

	13-09-2001 13:32									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Kurgan, well.. you said it all, there is little for me to add to your post. Two things though:

To me nationalism = minimalism. If you can have two, why restrict yourself to one? I of course respect it but can't get it.

And about the ancestors, another thing I really can't understand is how many basque terrorists have Castilian/Spanish family names. I can't imagine the bunch of lies these people have swallowed to manifest such a hate against the land of their parents and grandparents.

	13-09-2001 14:11									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I agree with you about:

"To me nationalism = minimalism. If you can have two, why restrict yourself to one? I of course respect it but can't get it. ", and also about the lies that people swallo;and the thing of the familiy names is as you say some´thing strange, "come on look at your family name and tell about your pure Basque blooded ancestors."

Another thing , thanks for the invitation to this forum, it looks good, and I never saw it, because I was always looking only to the CIV3 related forums, and they are on the top of the page. BTW, do you know if the people here are planning scenarios for civ3, I downloaded "CELTS and IBERIANS" (I think that is the name, or something similar) and they are awesome. If they do such a good job in CVI3, it could be a wonder.

I hope that you do not have any people related to you affected by the attacks.

	13-09-2001 14:19									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I'm the designer of 'Celts and Iberians'

Right now I'm a bit angry with Civ3 So I have not made any plans on it.... this is something my wife is very happy with.

Thank God nobody close to me was affected by the attacks. Thanx for asking.

	13-09-2001 14:24									#5
	Tired of ads?

Congratulations for the Scenario, ¿Why are angry at CVI3?.

	13-09-2001 14:30									#6
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

No Spanish/Latino civ in it!

	13-09-2001 14:37									#7
	Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Yes you are right, ¿do you think that it will be possible to create them?, I have no clue about programing, but I thought that maybe because the animations are difficult to do, creators of scenarios or MODS could paint over the animations and units, changing the external appearance of them.

	13-09-2001 14:48									#8
	Support Apolyton

I have no idea but I also presume it wouldn't be easy. But for the moment being, let's just enjoy Civ2!

	13-09-2001 14:48									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Güelcom Kurgan!

Guat ar yu güeirin tu explein yor nik?

Edit: spelling

Last edited by Waku on 13-09-2001 at 16:40

	13-09-2001 15:36									#10
	Suffering from ads?

ai lof yu englis mister uacu, je,je,je is guanderful

	13-09-2001 16:21									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Kurgan es el nombre del inmortal malo de "Highlanders", y tambien una montañas que se encuentran al este (creo) de Moscu.

	13-09-2001 17:07									#12
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Bienvenido al foro, jejej ya lei el encuentro que has tenido con Xarxo, verdad que es un encanto??

Sobre el civilization3 no creo que yo que triunfe demasiao jodio editar los escenarios que es la parte divertido del juego

Por cierto que hace un español en Belgica???Erasmus??trabajo??mujeres ???

	13-09-2001 19:19									#13
	Suffering from ads?

Welkom, Kurgan! Woon je in Vlaanderen of Wallonie?

The background of this thread's beginnings are a bit vague, but I think I understand what is being discussed. Even if not, maybe I can still say something worthwhile!

Nationalism can be brought to useful fruition, but is too often misused as an excuse for violence. See Northern Ireland for an extreme example. The violence continues seemingly for no reason other than those who commit it refuse to acknowledge that their supposed goals could be reached peacefully. Apparently the goal of unification is nothing other than an excuse to hate and kill. Quebec offers an example of what Kurgan describes, albeit an unsuccessful one.

My knowledge of Catalonian and Basque affairs is minimal, so I won't comment on them. However, regarding "pure" ethnicity, it is a silly notion in many parts of the world. Names are not always telling. My stepfather's surname is Welsh. His mother compiled a geneology of the family back into the 16th century - every last one a Norwegian, except one lone Welshman, whose name it still bears, entered three generations ago. My mother's family can trace it's name to ~12th century Normandy, despite not having a Norman added to the family tree in over 600 years. In the former case, a Welsh name for almost purely Norwegian people. In the latter case, a Norman name for almost purely Italian people. A Euskara with a Castillian name may have a similar tale to tell.

Purity might not be the issue. Nationalistic feelings stem from cultural/linguistic ties. They feel different because they have a different history, a different language, and thus a different way of experiencing the world. Nationalism is a striving to shrink the political rule to comprise just those people like us, who share our reality. That one's blood may be 1/8 spanish is a minor inconvenience.

	13-09-2001 19:34									#14
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I am here working, no Erasmus, and no women.
For the Marquis de Sodaq, I will say that I agree with you that nationalism is more based in the sharing of a common view of reality, but also there should be a common physical identification thing (not all of them), I am sure that black people having lived many years in the Basque country will not be accepted by Basque nationalists, they are always mentioning that the Basque people have a very distinctive kind of blood (RH-). Also it will be very funny to use the arguments of nationalists about roots and heritage against them, because if we have to look for our roots, we will have to go back 50.000 years or more (if scientists are right), when a small group of people (Cromagnon) left Africa through the Sinai to populate the World. Then we should say that the only nationalist movement valid in its arguments will be the Movement for the freedom of Cromagnons.¿ Any one of those around?

	13-09-2001 19:35									#15
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Sorry I am in Brussels, that is or was part of Vlaanderen.

	13-09-2001 19:35									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Point taken, Marquis, but the vast majority of Basques with Castilian names whom I was referring to are actually the sons and grandsons of Castilian/Andalusian/Galician/etc people who migrated to the Basque country in this century. Pure blood (whatever that means) Basques call them 'maketos'. I do not have the numbers here but 'maketos' comprise a very significant percent of the basque population. Continuous mixing of the groups of people living in different parts of the peninsula is a historical constant.

	13-09-2001 19:55									#17
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I have a friend here that says (he is from Bilbao) and he tells me that the people with mixture of blood (maketos) could be 70%, that would not be strange, you do not only find Castilian names in the Basque Country (some of them have been there for centuries), but you find millions of people with Basque names in the rest of Spain. This friend is telling me right now that Garcia in its origins was a Basque name, and trust me Garcia is a very very very common name in Spain as a whole.

	13-09-2001 19:59									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hey Kurg, tell your friend to join us asap!

PS. Very long shot: is his name Eduardo perhaps?

PPS. Garcia is pretty common even in California

	13-09-2001 20:27									#19
	Got spare money?

No his name is not Eduardo, and I do not know if you will belive this, but it is safer for him that nobody knows his name. The Basque Country is a very small place, and if someone who knows him there and have different opinions reads here things that they do not like, maybe they can try to hurt him.

	13-09-2001 20:34									#20
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Kurgan No his name is not Eduardo, and I do not know if you will belive this, but it is safer for him that nobody knows his name. The Basque Country is a very small place, and if someone who knows him there and have different opinions reads here things that they do not like, maybe they can try to hurt him.

Some people should read this just to see where is the real oppresion.

	13-09-2001 22:18									#21
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Kurgan ...we should say that the only nationalist movement valid in its arguments will be the Movement for the freedom of Cromagnons.¿ Any one of those around?

Alas, the nationalist creates a convenient beginning point to his selected preferences...

My two personal anecdotes were contrary to the point I was making earlier. Altho in my family these names are not telling of ethnicity, this was not to say that that is the general rule - only that such exceptions should not be considered uncommon. Of course, there exists a whole spectrum of possibilities. I would guess that the typical person could not possibly be "purely" of any stock, however that is defined. At some point, either outsiders joined the family, or the particular ethnicity loses any definition in order to accomodate a widening variety of origins.

That a certain blood type tells of heritage is interesting, but far from foolproof. Take Etruscan noses as another example.

	14-09-2001 11:38									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Quién se acuerda de algo que escribió Unbamuno o Pio Baroja que decía maomeno "el nacionalismo se cura viajando y el fanatismo(?) leyendo?"

	14-09-2001 14:21									#23
	Suffering from ads?

Que grandisima verdad es esa (lo de la primera parte). Antonio Machado tambien escribio algo en ese sentido. Si lo encuentro lo posteo. La pena es que a *ellos* les resbala

	14-09-2001 16:42									#24
	Increase the size of your Attachments

pues arzallus ha estado en alemania... je,je,je quizá lo de los viajes tenga un efecto contrario, este debió pillar al gen medio debil del nazismo, por allí

	14-09-2001 17:35									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by alf Quién se acuerda de algo que escribió Unbamuno o Pio Baroja que decía maomeno "el nacionalismo se cura viajando y el fanatismo(?) leyendo?"

Baroja escribió que "el carlismo se cura leyendo". Lo del nacionalismo se cura viajando no sé quien fue el primero en decirlo, se ha repetido mucho...

Ambas son verdad, aunque Arzalluz haya estado en China. Porque Arzalluz sabe que lo que predica no es verdad. ¿No sacó a sus hijos a estudiar fuera del País Vasco, por ejemplo?

	14-09-2001 18:10									#26
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Fiera "el carlismo se cura leyendo"

ETA es en buena medida una continuación del carlismo.

	14-09-2001 18:53									#27
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

No solo ETA, el "bizkairretismo" o nacionalismo vasco en general. Arana era un carlista que se quedó sin movimiento al que seguir, y se sacó de la manga el nacionalismo.

	14-09-2001 19:43									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

su padre... él resentido

	14-09-2001 18:35									#29
	Tired of ads?

Edit: lo siento, la hora del foro nos está jugando malas pasadas otra vez.

	14-09-2001 22:25									#30
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

E incluso antes del carlismo. He leido a varios autores que la primera raiz del nacionalismo vasco esta en la "pureza de sangre". Algunos vascos a partir del siglo XVI, presumian mucho de eso que se llamaba "cristiano viejo".