13-09-2001 15:10									#1
	Should peaceful Golden Age trigger be independent of Civ attributes? Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Originally posted somewhere else:

quote: Originally posted by lihb I have an ideal. Why don't make the wonders that trigger the golden age be independent of the civ attributes? Such that Chinese don't have to be a militaristic+industrious civ, and still can have their golden by building a militaristic+industrious wonder. For example, every civ have a list of wonder which can trigger golden age. And the list is build base on two rule: 1. The civ that actually build this wonder must have this wonder in their list. 2. The number of wonder in different era in the lists is nearly to be same for every civ. So, Chinese will have great wall, art of war, grand canal plus some others in their list. and American will have Hover Damn, Seti, Apollo, Manhattan plus some other in their list. Is doesn't matter if this civ fit the wonder attributes. As long as the civ build them, they get a golden age or half golden age. In this way a civ don't have to have a attribute that not fit them(militaristic for Chinese, for example) to make the wonder that they actually build in real history to be their golden age wonder(great wall for Chinese, for example).

What do you think? I think that's a good idea.

	13-09-2001 15:49									#2
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Theres just 2 problems with this.

Firstly, there are only 12 Great Wonders and 16 Civs. Which Civs would miss out, making players less likely to choose that Civ, and preventing them from getting a golden age?? Maybe by including the Small Wonders as a trigger as well might solve this problem.

Secondly, this idea may work well for the American and Chinese civilizations, whom a majority of wonders are taken from, but where does this leave civs like the Iroquois, Zulus and Aztecs?? Would they not have a golden age, or would some wonders just be 'attributed' to them??

I dont have any problems with the peaceful trigger as currently implemented.

	13-09-2001 22:51									#3
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I like the idea of tying it to the Civs attributes. This forces a civilization to make an effort to build a particular wonder if they want a Golden Age - thus making it more imperative that they strive for the advances etc. that lead to specific wonders.

Adds a whole new level of strategy. If anything, I'd prefer the trigger be REMOVED from the special units.

	13-09-2001 22:55									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Theres just 2 problems with this. Firstly, there are only 12 Great Wonders and 16 Civs. Which Civs would miss out, making players less likely to choose that Civ, and preventing them from getting a golden age?? Maybe by including the Small Wonders as a trigger as well might solve this problem.

I don't see a problem with this. Even if there are that many civs, there are ALWAYS wars, which will help with golden ages. Even if some civs miss out, it's a part of the challenge.

	13-09-2001 23:02									#5
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I vote for anything that does not reduce Civ3's replayability. Forcing a civ to go down any specific track, game after game, is absolutely wrong. It doesn't matter if it's based on attributes, wonders tied to golden ages or whatever. I certainly don't want to start up a main game knowing what wonders the Chinese will go after or how any civ will react in a given situation. Do you?

This is perhaps yet another reason why I think some of us will stop playing the main game quite soon and go exclusively to scenarios or wait for MP.

	13-09-2001 23:20									#6
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quote: Theres just 2 problems with this. Firstly, there are only 12 Great Wonders and 16 Civs. Which Civs would miss out, making players less likely to choose that Civ, and preventing them from getting a golden age?? Maybe by including the Small Wonders as a trigger as well might solve this problem

No civs will miss out, each wonders has two or so attributes attached to it. That is why the chinese can build the Great Wall (Industrius and Militeristic) or two seperate wonders each of which corespond to one of their attributes. In example given the Hoover Dam (Industrius and something) and The Art Of War (Militeristic). see?

quote: Secondly, this idea may work well for the American and Chinese civilizations, whom a majority of wonders are taken from, but where does this leave civs like the Iroquois, Zulus and Aztecs?? Would they not have a golden age, or would some wonders just be 'attributed' to them??

It doesn't matter the nationality of the wonder, nor the attributes (only so for a golden age to be triggered).

On a side note, and also to do with the poll, firstly it will add strategy (shoud you build a wonder to get a golden age, or should you build a different one to get more worth while bonus and wait for another one to come along),

and secondly, there needs to be a peaceful golden age trigger, and how else can it be done to give a relatively fair advantage to what ever civ/strategy being played

	14-09-2001 09:16									#7
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Some of us feel that the peaceful trigger should be independent of Civ-specific abilities because we think that some of the assignments are silly (e.g. Chinese being militaristic). Now, granted players can fix that themselves, but what good is the game if players need to fix every little thing?

I don't see a big problem with that. Even though there are 12 Great Wonders there are also many Small Wonders.

	14-09-2001 11:24									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Grim Leaper It doesn't matter the nationality of the wonder, nor the attributes (only so for a golden age to be triggered).

Re-read the first point in the original quote. It says

quote: 1. The civ that actually build this wonder must have this wonder in their list.

I know that the peaceful trigger as currently implemented is not affected by the nationality of the wonder, but I was commenting on the proposed idea. The thing the poll asked us to vote on...

	14-09-2001 12:27									#9
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quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Theres just 2 problems with this. Firstly, there are only 12 Great Wonders and 16 Civs. Which Civs would miss out, making players less likely to choose that Civ, and preventing them from getting a golden age?? Maybe by including the Small Wonders as a trigger as well might solve this problem. Secondly, this idea may work well for the American and Chinese civilizations, whom a majority of wonders are taken from, but where does this leave civs like the Iroquois, Zulus and Aztecs?? Would they not have a golden age, or would some wonders just be 'attributed' to them?? I dont have any problems with the peaceful trigger as currently implemented.

That was my post in "Civilization III > Civilization".
You misunderstood my point.
I said Chinese should have great wall, grand canal, art of war and PLUS SOME OTHER.
For those civ that have not build any wonder
in actual case. It could be assigned randomly.

For example :
Chinese : great wall, grand canal, art of war, hoover damn, apollo...etc
America : pyramid, Megallan, grand canal, Seti, Hoover, Apollo, United Nation, Cure for Cancer...etc
Aztec : pyramid, great wall, art of war, United Nation, ...etc

The wonder that Aztec build was not shown in the the civ game. But it could be assigned some wonders to Aztec. And in this way, when your golden age wonder had been build by other, you still have other chances to trigger peaceful golden age.

And if the golden age is limited to one per civ, it could be done in this way : once the player build a wonder on the their civ list, the programme will check if the player already had golden age, if yes -> don't trigger golden age, if no -> ask the player if he want a golden age on not(maybe someone would like to have an late golden age instead of an early one).

Or it could be done in this way : each wonder have different bonus for different civ, let's say, great wall is 100%, art of war is 50%, grand is 50%, apollo is 33% for chinese, while grand canal is 33%, apollo is 100% for america. When the player accumulate 100%, he will be asked if he want golden age or not.

Another AVANTAGE of this is that : when players want to edit the arrtibutes of civ, they have one more degree of freedom, they can change the America to scientific and commercial, AND don't have to giveup the Hoover Dam as America's golden age wonder.

	14-09-2001 21:10									#10
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The more I think about it the more I dislike the whole Golden Age idea. In Civ2, wonders were too powerful. Most of my games became races for certain wonders. I think wonders began to overshadow other aspects of the game. If Civ3 makes wonders even more powerful (by tying them to Golden Ages) they'd better make them much more expensive (and have the AI be better at building them).

Can anyone tell me why Golden Ages (regardless of triggers) add anything to the game? IMHO, they aren't realistic and they don't add any meaningful or fun distinctions between the various civs. That only leaves strategy. Given the broad task of figuring out how to best add more strategy to Civ2, there are a host of better ideas than Golden Ages.

Please flame me.