13-09-2001 19:35									#1
	Dip 51 South American Supremacy - OVER Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

The game has ended in a three way draw between Columbia, Brazil, and Chile. Congratulations to Sahib, El Awrence, and Chazzy respective as they survive and share victory. Thanks to everyone for playing. I look forward to your EOG comments.

	13-09-2001 21:01									#2
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"share the victory".... what about topping the board?

	13-09-2001 21:05									#3
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But, more important: thanks a lot, Randolph, for GMing for us. Itīs really been a please, a flawless, smooth game with regular turns and good maps.
And thanks everyone for playing, I had a lot of fun and learned a lot (not the least about my oponents). My EOG follows later.

	13-09-2001 21:06									#4
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Final Map (prior to adjustments)


http://www.geocities.com/ruffhaus8/ADC51/F1844.GIF

	13-09-2001 21:27									#5
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Well, it's finally over. Having learnt a lot about how players work, as well as how the game works, it was interesting to bring about the collapse of Argentina fairly quickly with Chilean and Bolivian help.- Paraguay was a little bit messier. I must commend Snowie for being such a hindrance to his enemies even after what seemed total defeat.

The destruction of Venezuela with the help of my friendly-till-that-point drug lord Sahib was too easy to be true, should be fixed before the next game. Of course, I knew Sahib would try and screw me there, and indeed I was right, but incapable of realising that the whole of Peru and Bolivia would be in league with him as well. I was, for a while, rather badly defended but I managed to reorganise as Chile began to hit Bolivia and the junkies started annexing Peru, which came as a very convenient event in my own war effort. Many times I felt that I would not see the end of the game, let alone share a tie.

After we hammered out an agreement to stop Sahib in his tracks with Chaz, it all seemed ok now, but the temptation of the druggie came many times and I was scared shyteless that Chaz would be tempted... fortunately he wasn't.

Thanks Ruff for this game, regular turns, no NMRs (right?) and good variant made this one very enjoyable. Thanks to all the players as well for their commitment. Even if I did go over deadlines often.

	13-09-2001 22:07									#6
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The website's been updated. I already posted an EOG for this a bit back, so...
http://www.geocities.com/myrdred_ii/ if you've forgotten.

	13-09-2001 23:52									#7
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It all started with cocain...

As the colombian drug lord I tried and sold my lies to Venezuela first. I was more then surprised to see that he really trusted me. Infact, I had believed that he had no chance but to fight me from the start. The fact that he did not was the key to my initial success.

Already during the venezuelean campaign, I talked to Peru and Bolivia. I hoped to invoke their fears of each other as middle powers. I presented myself as the rescuer and helping hand. As I had hoped, war broke out between them. Logical step for me was to attack Bolivia right away. I think I maneged to convince him in the beginning that I was not actually attacking him, at least his initial moves made it easy for me. But credit to Bolovia nontheless, because he put up a very stiff resistance once he realized my intentions.

At that time I had planned to ally with Brazil and split the board in two, me the west, him the east. He was the largest power, wich made him everybodies enemy. So I though, while encouraging the othersīfear of Brazil, I would myself find it easy to forge an alliance that would have been invincible.

But Brazil obviously thought he should try and outsmart me. He betrayed me in our campaign against Venezuela and tried to get a larger share. To me this was a clear sign that he was after a solo. He was already through the main northern stalemate line. I realized that Brazil had to be neutralized. I was very reluctant however, as I feared a brazilian-Peruvian alliance.

Thankfully as it turned out, Brazil and Peru clashed even before I could start a diplomatic campaign in Peru. Peru became my ally.

The rest was a playing with stalemate lines. Unfortunately for me, Chile had clearly seen the problem early enough. He and Brazil struck a deal, so I understood, to support the rest of Peru long enough to establish a very secure stalemate. Peru disbanded only in their way (smart move) I took the rest of Peru notheless, but there was no chance I could have gone any further. Unless they would have made a mistake, but they had played pretty good so far, so I had to assume we were at a draw. Thatīs when I proposed a draw myself.

Again: I had a lot of fun. It was a great game, although I believe the map needs a lot of changes. Thanks everyone!
Sahib

	14-09-2001 03:50									#8
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Last time I trust Sahib! (wink) Good game everyone. Next time we play, I sure as hell want to start with three units!

	14-09-2001 07:11									#9
	Chileaen EOG Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Well , we finally got everyone to agree on the draw. I figured once Bolivia was gone it might pass. I started this game out trying to set up alliances on both sides of the board. I secured one with Berzerker to my north which enabled me to grab the open sc's to the south. Once I had some builds to work with I started to move inland. Paraguay was falling and it looked as if Argentina would be next so I approached Brazil about working together. We basically agreed to not attack each other and it allowed me to gain a few Argentine Sc's before he capitulated.

After the fall of Argentina I saw that my only way to grow would be up the coast. I hit Berzerker while he was busy against Peru and Columbia. Not a very noble act , but one that proved necessary in the end as it gained me position for a stalemate with the Columbian units. I must give credit to Brazil ( Hoggy ) for sticking to our arraingment against Sahib. The only way for someone to solo at this point was to turn on their neighbor. And to do so would have given Columbia the game.

If I were to play Chile again I would probably move inward faster. I think my allaince early with Bolivia could have worked had we moved inland faster. By being conservative early I allowed Brazil to grow unchallenged by me, which basically forced me to seek an alliance with him in the end.

My thanks to Ruffy and all who played for a fine game. This was an interesting variant that could be fantastic with a few tweeks. Any game that see's Defiant get his ass whopped so quick isn't all bad

	14-09-2001 20:06									#10
	SAS Commentary and Suggestions Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hi all, this is B., SAS's designer. First and foremost, thanks to all for playing my variant. I noticed that most of you enjoyed the game, but suggested some changes to the map. Based on watching this game and other earlier playtests, I also saw the need to make a few changes, most notably centered around Venezuela and Paraguay. I invite you all to please email me or post messages here with your thoughts on this new second Revision, and to suggest other changes, if you think the ones I made already are insufficient.

A quick description - Venezuela has been significantly strengthened versus Colombia, in a way that Colombia should probably view Venezuela as a potential ally and a target about equally now. Paraguay has been strengthened indirectly, by the addition of an SC in Tucuman that should balance out the incentive to cooperate with either Brasil or Argentina to (hopefully) about 50/50. Previously, (in my opinion) working with Argentina against Brasil was almost a no-brainer for both Paraguay and Argentina.

Anyway, here's the link to see the map:

http://home.earthlink.net/~bthester777/SASRev2.gif

At first it looks like Argentina will be the one to benefit from the new SC Tucuman...but not if Paraguay can get Chile and/or Bolivia in their camp. Anyway, thanks again, hope to hear a lot of commentary...the DVWorkshop on Cat23 has failed me miserably in this regard...

B. (don't forget to check out Sengoku too...I think Hagakure is still running on Apolyton...that's my handiwork too, though it might be an old edition).

	14-09-2001 20:17									#11
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B.,

I believe the initial country strenghts are not the only problems of the map. Playing Colombia I encountered a lot of stalemate lines. Infact you can build at least two stalemate lines through those neutral centers. ANd in the west two there can be some very strong lines based from Bahia Sechura. Now, that means whenever a Colombia kills Bolivia and Venezuela, it is in a stalemate position. (Especially as you need only very few units to hold it) That is a major hinderance to strategic planning. My suggestion would be to divide Bahia Sechura and the two seas bordering Maranhao.

	14-09-2001 20:35									#12
	Sahib's suggestions Suffering from ads?

hm...not the first comment I've heard about the sea zones being a little choked. And it wouldn't be too difficult to add a North Pacific Ocean split with Bahia Sechura (since I already have a Pacific Ocean and an SPO). Likewise we could have an Atlantic Ocean across the top of BdN and BSM. On the other hand, if Colombia has defeated Bolivia and Venezuela (and the Peruvians in between) it's likely they have their 18 SCs for the solo...basically, the reason I say this is because I was already concerned that I had made the Colombians very vulnerable to a Peru/Venezuela allliance by adjusting the GPr sea border and reversing the starting positions of the Venezuelan units.

I'm very inclined to make the Atlantic Ocean changes, but unsure of the Bahia Sechura split. I also do not want to deny the Peruvian fleet in Lima access to the Galapagos islands in the first year, this is an important part of the dynamic between Pe and Co.
But if you all can help me figure out a way around that, I'm open to making changes, because I definitely agree with Sahib about the lack of options at sea in general.

In creating Colombia's position, I had it in mind to create a power that was relatively secure to start, but had to move quickly and aggressively if they didn't want to be bottled up by the eventual leaders in the south. It seems I went overboard in bottling them up. While we're at it, are there (in your opinions) any unnecessary stalemate lines on land that I should look at?

Thanks!
B.

	17-09-2001 22:37									#13
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I would just like to reply to Chickean President Chumpy.

Listen you beer guzzling, pie-eyed, nazi loving, body by Bud, retarded fart, if I need any smart ass comments from you, I wil beat them out of that couch potato frame you call a body.

	18-09-2001 03:58									#14
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Errr, ummmmm Defiant. I think you have me confused with your inlaws. I stand by my comments, next time I hope I get to partake in your downfall, or is that freefall.

	18-09-2001 04:12									#15
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errrrrr, ummmmmm, that's right, that's about as fast as you can think sitting on that couch eating bon bons.