16-09-2001 09:49									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Stormhound There was always lots more than just ethos going into deciding how underlings act; there still is. To be fair to Infogrames, Alan's design was the most ambitious thing I've ever seen, and I think that he was also designing with hopes of the franchise seeing a 4th game, eventually. All of the cut material is being saved, just in case. Infogrames still has to end up making enough money on this thing, or else there WON'T be a MOO4 (nor, quite possibly, a MOM2). So there is very little here that can be addressed without consideration of all sides.

Alan: What did you say about my design? grrr!!

Stormpup: Err....well Alan...maybe it was a little ambit....

Alan: Shut up! How dare you say that about my masterpiece. I just got back from eating crow with the money boys. They said I'm a lousy project manager...that I need to learn what Gant chart are. ( ) They even said one of our guys is telling all the Netrats to bug Mr. Big with whiney e-mails...

Stromie: Well Alan, actually it was a lousy project plan...

Alan: AAAAAGGGGGHHHH!!! KILLLLL!!!!

(Alan chases Stormen around the desk)

	16-09-2001 18:18									#32
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Although I am saddened by the loss of (oddly enough) the Annals of Space and Time more than anything else, I want to commend Quicksilver for making this information public now, for explaining the reasons behind the cuts, and for giving us all such early information about the game so that we know about the proposed features even those that do not make it to the final game. It is that kind of communication that builds strong customer loyalty, and I hope it continues.

Carl

	16-09-2001 18:24									#33
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Alan is just being realistic

The game looked good on paper, but those who have knowledge of software engineering would find it too ambitious, given its minimum hardware requirements.

That's what I have been saying all along anyway.

Thumbs up to the Quicksilver team for doing the right - but painful - thing.

	16-09-2001 21:20									#34
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In case anyone still cares to know: I played Master of Magic a lot a couple of years ago until I completed it on the hardest difficulty for the first time, but in brief:

It's like civ, except:
- There are two maps representing two world, between which you can travel by magical means.
- You can hire characters (and also summon & rescue them) which are basically units who can use magic items and gain lots more experience than a regular unit. You don't have to lead every army with a character or anything like that. In the late game characters can massacre almost everything else there is.
- You (and your opponent wizards, and some characters) can cast spells to do all sorts of clever stuff.

That's most of the major changes, but naturally these have many other effects and theres some other stuff I haven't mentioned.

In quite a few ways it was more fun than civ2, and I found the AI fairly challenging back then (but I was a fairly hopeless player...). If there's to be a MOM2, I'm happy .

John

	17-09-2001 00:57									#35
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First of all, Stormhound, I appreciate Your friendly and open approach so much I can´t really get angry about even the loss of some of my favourite features. Ethos was near the top of my 'favourite features list', so that news doesn´t really make me happy, but, well.

I hope there is some sort of game replay/summary, even if only a one page 'list of achievements' or similar?

Space monsters: Couldn´t You do them in an abstracted 'event type' way, like in MOO2? That shouldn´t be too difficult, or am I wrong here?

I hope governments/political systems (as race picks or in-game decisions) are still in? If there is less flexibility here than in MOO2, this would kill the game for me, so please tell me I can be reassured on this?

	17-09-2001 06:20									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune Space monsters: Couldn´t You do them in an abstracted 'event type' way, like in MOO2? That shouldn´t be too difficult, or am I wrong here?

Ditto. The loss of Monster-types would take away some of the flavour I think. I'd hope they could at least make an appearance as a random event or somesuch. Unless those are going as well That'd really kill it for me...

	17-09-2001 12:50									#37
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quote: Originally posted by J Bytheway In case anyone still cares to know: I played Master of Magic a lot a couple of years ago until I completed it on the hardest difficulty for the first time, but in brief: It's like civ, except: - There are two maps representing two world, between which you can travel by magical means. - You can hire characters (and also summon & rescue them) which are basically units who can use magic items and gain lots more experience than a regular unit. You don't have to lead every army with a character or anything like that. In the late game characters can massacre almost everything else there is. - You (and your opponent wizards, and some characters) can cast spells to do all sorts of clever stuff. That's most of the major changes, but naturally these have many other effects and theres some other stuff I haven't mentioned. In quite a few ways it was more fun than civ2, and I found the AI fairly challenging back then (but I was a fairly hopeless player...). If there's to be a MOM2, I'm happy . John

Well, thanks!! This sounds like fun. I hope they do make MOM2 then. It seems to bear similarity to Heroes of Might and Magic III, one of the best games ever made.

	17-09-2001 15:48									#38
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I don't remember to have read something about the kind of "guardians" , or some ancient ships or powerful artifacts guardianing very rich stellar systems. In MoO2 Space Monsters were patrolling those scarce valuable planets; what kind of obstacle can we expect then in MoO3 without these creatures ? ?They said there will be NO Dyson Spheres, so maybe some kind of natural force, deep asteroid fields, automated or Antaran ships ?

Again, keep up the good work!

	18-09-2001 02:15									#39
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Hehe. Good point about "Oh, that'll be easy to program." I stand by my statement though, again assuming that no excessively complex conditions are required. I mean, just add another option in negotiation along the lines of "join together in faction," and each turn check something along the lines of "add up all allied races population/score/whatever and see if it's greater than the secret number."

Now again, if the AI can't handle it, completely understandable.

	18-09-2001 19:52									#40
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quote: Originally posted by Comrade Tribune First of all, Stormhound, I appreciate Your friendly and open approach so much I can´t really get angry about even the loss of some of my favourite features. Ethos was near the top of my 'favourite features list', so that news doesn´t really make me happy, but, well. I hope there is some sort of game replay/summary, even if only a one page 'list of achievements' or similar? Space monsters: Couldn´t You do them in an abstracted 'event type' way, like in MOO2? That shouldn´t be too difficult, or am I wrong here? I hope governments/political systems (as race picks or in-game decisions) are still in? If there is less flexibility here than in MOO2, this would kill the game for me, so please tell me I can be reassured on this?

I was rather fond of Ethos too, for what it's worth.

As to game summary, I'm not sure what's planned at this point since we're not doing the "full bells and whistles" variety. I'll do a little asking to see what I can find.

The "event" system hasn't been fully designed yet, so it MIGHT be possible that the monsters slip in the side door that way. No promises, but I'm sure it's lurking in Alan's mind too.

There have been no cuts made to date in the governments, nor am I aware of any being planned. That section has seen extensive design and programming work, so it's hard to envision much they could cut.
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On to other messages:

There will be a Guardian. It's featured in the game poster, and is certainly planned to be there. So far as things guarding "very rich stellar systems", there is a wide variety of specials already designed in, including some nasty ones that'll give you pause about how badly you want a given system. The danger will be different, but it will be there. This section too should be pretty safe, because the design work was done LONG ago and it was handed to the coders.

There will still be standard alliances; actually, several flavors of same. So far as "adding points" perhaps I can clarify what I know of the victory conditions: the game end is triggered when someone completes one of multiple possible conditions. Game scores are then compared, and whoever has the most victory points at that stage is the winner...and that isn't necessarily the person who triggered the game-end. I suspect that arguments over who REALLY won, given the multiple possible entanglements of alliances and agreements, will be left to the players. I'll try to pass along more news as it crosses my screen.

	20-09-2001 05:56									#41
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I never like to hear of developer's creative control being dictated by economics, but it happens.

I have to admit, however, that the cuts listed here don't sound too critical to the game, and may very well be for the best anyhow: niceties are nice, but that's about it.

	21-09-2001 18:28									#42
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quote: There will be a Guardian. It's featured in the game poster, and is certainly planned to be there. So far as things guarding "very rich stellar systems", there is a wide variety of specials already designed in, including some nasty ones that'll give you pause about how badly you want a given system. The danger will be different, but it will be there. This section too should be pretty safe, because the design work was done LONG ago and it was handed to the coders.

Anybody else seeing their entire race get eaten by the aliens from Aliens? Or maybe some really old haxor virus from JeffK

Man, I wonder what space monsters would have been if this stuff is already in?

Gotta hand it to everyone at Quicksilver, they're really swinging for the fences here. Keep us updated Stormhound, we all appreciate it.

	29-10-2001 01:45									#43
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Too bad the ethos system was cut. That really would have made a difference to other TBS games. Anyway thanks for telling us in advance. Also with the monsters gone I hope that there wont be other severe cuts or the game will fall back to the level of all those other space TBS games who can be found on the market (which I don't buy), and I don't think that would cover even the reduced expenses, for clones don't sell as good as innovative games (just my $0.02).

	02-11-2001 04:22									#44
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I have a suggestion for quiksilver -
why not implenent 'space monsters' quickly by making them like barbarians, or rebel / minor races from civ3.
You could simply use the same artwork for the other spaceships, and place these ships with powerful weapons in strategic locations in the universe, or spawn them randomly. They would fight anyone who came into their space - and be useful for combat experience , maybe even to salvage weapons technology (I hope that great features still in MOO3 from MOO2)

These could replace the Monsters, and maybe be more realistic than some big bizarre crystal floating through the universe, being more like pirates or remnants from old alien civilisations.

Something like monsters/pirates/minor nations would make the endgame more interesting when theres only a few planets left to conquer..
I don't know if something like this is already planned.

AdmiralPJ
Peter - Captain of the Mantra-Riyu Galactic Fleet

	06-11-2001 19:00									#45
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Hi,

I understand background behind cuts, but still I really will lack ethos. It (IMHO) was a great tool for simulating real behavior of empire's population. Because (as Stormhound said) it influenced almost everything, I wonder if there will be some simpler means of simulating such complex social structures and influencing at least some of the things ethos did ? I certainly hope so.

	06-11-2001 19:16									#46
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I can't think of anything in the game where Ethos was the only influencing factor. At least, not anything aside from certain parts of the Ethos system. Alan and I had a fair number of brainstorming sessions where we'd sit down and talk about "everything that affects 'X'" (whichever subsystem we were designing) and we generally did a thorough job. The game would've been better with Ethos, to be sure, but there was just not time enough to be sure it'd be done right, especially when it came to the "ethos combat" system.

There are other factors, though. The system by which government policies are changed reflects a good measure both of your race and the internal differences of need and opinion therein, and while it's not quite the same as Ethos, it should still give you a bit of a taste of social engineering.

	06-11-2001 19:22									#47
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Yeah, I understand all of these, but still, I found ethos and all things along it (ideals, tradition) very appealing, new and really improving the game.
A vision of creating a real race, with ethos was for me VERY interesting. I even pre-designed based on ethos information a very proud, traditionalistic and militiaristic race (based on ST Klingons). And now I found out it's no longer possible to that extent. Pity

	16-04-2002 00:42									#48
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quote: Originally posted by GP Alan: What did you say about my design? grrr!! Stormpup: Err....well Alan...maybe it was a little ambit.... Alan: Shut up! How dare you say that about my masterpiece. I just got back from eating crow with the money boys. They said I'm a lousy project manager...that I need to learn what Gant chart are. ( ) They even said one of our guys is telling all the Netrats to bug Mr. Big with whiney e-mails... Stromie: Well Alan, actually it was a lousy project plan... Alan: AAAAAGGGGGHHHH!!! KILLLLL!!!! (Alan chases Stormen around the desk)

project managment...

	16-04-2002 21:32									#49
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quote: Originally posted by Stormhound (As an ex-programmer, I wince every time someone says "oh, that'd be EASY to program", but be that as it may...) Ethos, on the other hand, had had extensive design work, but touched practically everything and was proving a bear to model, let alone test… I was rather fond of Ethos too, for what it's worth.

Yes, that's exactly why I winced the first time I read Alan's description of Ethos. I've done just enough programming to know what a pain it can be to get this to work with that. Making some intangible set of factors affect nearly everything is asking for trouble. Even if the effects are intended to be secondary they will have to be balanced. The time required to balance features is not linear but some higher order function of the number of processes affecting the feature.

To me, the Ethos system was the only thing that was truly eXperiential, fulfilling the promise fifth X. However much they want to hype other features as "fifth X" they can't ever be what Ethos could have been.

Ahhh, there's always hope for MOO4…

	17-04-2002 03:50									#50
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Let's hope Alan will keep the faith, and actually do MOO4!

	25-05-2003 06:40									#51
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project management...

	28-05-2003 14:59									#52
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pharming?