14-09-2001 00:08									#1
	Announced feature cuts Increase Your PM Length

I'm going to quote here a message posted by Alan this afternoon on the MOO3 Forum. This is for informational purposes, and I do not promise to be able to give more details or answer speculative questions.

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From: Alan Emrich (ALANEMRICH) 1:01 pm To: ALL (1 of 21) 4619.1

"The time has come," the Walrus said, "to talk of many things..." Among them, feature cuts in MOO3.

First, these feature cuts are necessary due to time and budget considerations. We've got the design, art, and engineering know-how to pull all this stuff off, but looking at the last 6 months of the schedule, it's time to make hard decisions so that the finish line is crossed with the best possible game within the rational time and money constraints of publishing computer games. That's simply the world we live in, people, and you can rail against economic realities all you want (but please don't do so on this thread; it won't help).

Second, all of this stuff, as designed, is being archived and put on to our "MOO4 List." Yes, we're optimists here and hope to revisit this franchise and do more with it in the future. (No, there is no deal, hand-shake, promise, hint, or even a wink from Infogrames to suggest this will happen; like I said, we're just optimists and hope we and this game do so well that it simply makes sense to do a MOO4 or expansion for MOO3 or something where we can get "another crack at it.") Now, everything going into MOO3 is being written into the design doc and coded into the game with "hooks" for this stuff to be included in the future with the greatest possible aplomb, but for now the verdict is in -- this stuff is being cut for MOO3.

Finally, this may not be the last round of cuts. Having been in this industry a long time, I'd bet anything that it isn't. That said, because we really strove to reach way beyond the genre conventions, even by falling short a few features, I still believe that we'll be delivering a genre-redefiining game that will kick some serious butt. So, remember all that's in the game, and look forward to all the rest if we get to do some future release in the MOO line.

Without further delay then (nor the specifics reasons behind each individual decision -- basically, these features promised to be the most engineering/playtesting intense so they became the most natural targets), here is the "cut list" to date:

1. The Annals of Space and Time (i.e., the "end game story review" of a civilizations adventures in MOO3)

2. The entire Ethos system

3. Team victory conditions (i.e., Factions and Unity)

Alan Emrich, MOO3 designer
Quicksilver Software, Inc.
The value of a good thing is to have done it.

	14-09-2001 00:38									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Sorry to sound like a newbie (I am with MOO even though I'm really looking forward to the game, Moo2 is too old for me to play and the recent space Civs tempt me, but fall flat in the end)

What is the Ethos system?

I've read the entire Moo3 website, cover to cover, but as it hasn't been updated recently, it was a long time ago and am too lazy to hunt through the encyclopedia that is moo3.com (which by the way is one kick a$s site )

	14-09-2001 01:08									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

http://moo3.quicksilver.com/official/religion01.html

That should contain the information you're looking for.

	14-09-2001 01:47									#4
	Oh well... Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Well I can't say I am happy that anything is being cut I can say that there seems to be a lot of good stuff still left in the game.


I do have a few questions however...


1) Were the Annals of Space & time going to be like a Civ review of which race settled each system, wars, etc, or some more indepth journal like entry recording all the major things each Race did?

2) I can see where the Ethos system would have enhanced the game immensely, but I can't say that I will miss it much because it always gave me a headache when trying to read about it and understand it.

3) Hmm, even though team winning conditions would have been great, they won't be missed as much as if the game shipped without PBEM, hotseat or multi-player added in. If the rumor I have heard about Civ3 not having MP is true then I probably won't buy that game, even though I played the original and it's sequal for over 2 years together.

Finally I'd just like to say thanks to Stormhound for posting here (Delphi forums are very convoluted!) and thanks to Alan and the rest of the QS team for their hard work on the game thus far and into the future. I remember buying MOO way back when and having fun but not truly enjoying the game until the "MOO bible" came out. I wish all strat guides were written as well, unfortunately only the "bible" and "Rome on 640k a day" were worth the paper they were written on.

Thanks again folks I look forward to seeing how well all this work ties together and I am catching up on my sleep now because I have a feeling I will need it once the game ships.

	14-09-2001 02:00									#5
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I believe it was going to be somewhat in-depth; I can't say how much so because I never really had anything to do with designing it, nor do I recall many discussions. I think it was one of those "it'll be nice if we have time to" things.

And you're welcome; we're trying to make an extra effort to stay in touch with the fans, and so far it has paid off quite well.

	14-09-2001 02:35									#6
	Re: Oh well... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous 2) I can see where the Ethos system would have enhanced the game immensely, but I can't say that I will miss it much because it always gave me a headache when trying to read about it and understand it.

Hey Ozy, can you include a link to the Moo3.com or preview description of Ethos?


Oh yeah, and Stormhound. Thanks a lot for everything posting hear as often as you do. Thanks.

	14-09-2001 07:23									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Stormhound,

Am I disappointed ethos is out? You bet you.

But what is the best about this is that I was told about it. I didn't have to find out about it in some silly email. I appreciate what you guys are doing, thanks!

	14-09-2001 07:51									#8
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

What? No team victory?!? What's next? No hot-seat?

Because that's just what is left for me to keep playing MoO2! I still play hot-seat games with 2 friends on a regular basis, and we don't attack each other like gentlemen! We win by going to Antares!
This is much funnyer because we can explore the game's awsome technology, kick AI's butt, and we end the game still being friends, not hating each other with backstabbings!

I really have a huge hope that there is a way to win without having to kill every race, in MoO3!

	14-09-2001 09:19									#9
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

It's been openly told to anyone who asked for more than a year now that there is NO hot-seat in MOO3; all multiplayer is going to be simultaneous (LAN/Net). Sorry if you're just now hearing that, but it's long since decided.

So far as "a way to win without having to kill every race", let me put it to you this way: it will be extremely difficult and time consuming TO win by that means. There are a number of features of the game which mitigate against it, not least something called the HFOG (Heavy Foot Of Government), which simulates the increasing bureaucracy and inefficiency of larger empires. We're actually working very hard to make it feasible to win without having to go on an expansionist rampage every time. War itself will be quite expensive, meaning that you'd better have a good reason for waging it and a good economy behind you, or you'll hurt yourself as badly as your enemy.

Kill EVERY race? Heck, wiping out ONE will be an accomplishment. So you may rest quite safely assured that there is a variety of other ways to win.

	14-09-2001 20:13									#10
	Re: Re: Oh well... Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by SerapisIV Hey Ozy, can you include a link to the Moo3.com or preview description of Ethos?

Here you go (copied and pasted from where Stormhound posted it earlier in the thread):

http://moo3.quicksilver.com/official/religion01.html

It's very indepth so you'll need to read all of the links to get an idea. Great concept but enough meat to that topic to almost be a game itself.

	14-09-2001 19:16									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Hmmm, previously how your underlings acted unless you used IFPs to smack em into line was determined by their ethos, I assume now that it'll be determined by their race? If so, will we get situations like "I don't want to play those goddam klackons, all my AI underlings want to do is build mines and I have to sink most of my IFP into changing this, I'll play the humans since the AI makes more balanced building decisions."

	14-09-2001 19:40									#12
	Inflate your Upload Space

Too bad the vision and the work that has gone into both MoO3 and Civ3 hasn't been instilled in the publisher - Infogrames. . .

	14-09-2001 20:08									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Thanks, sorry I just passed right over the earlier link without noticing.

	14-09-2001 20:24									#14
	Put an end to popups!

There was always lots more than just ethos going into deciding how underlings act; there still is.

To be fair to Infogrames, Alan's design was the most ambitious thing I've ever seen, and I think that he was also designing with hopes of the franchise seeing a 4th game, eventually. All of the cut material is being saved, just in case. Infogrames still has to end up making enough money on this thing, or else there WON'T be a MOO4 (nor, quite possibly, a MOM2). So there is very little here that can be addressed without consideration of all sides.

	14-09-2001 21:56									#15
	Re: Announced feature cuts Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Stormhound 1. The Annals of Space and Time (i.e., the "end game story review" of a civilizations adventures in MOO3) 2. The entire Ethos system 3. Team victory conditions (i.e., Factions and Unity)

- I have no experience with TBS Games in space, but having looked at the website (which, by the way is excellent and well updated ) MOO3 certainly does get me very excited. It has promise to be truly an excellent game.

- Those cuts don't worry me at all. In fact, I am happy that having to do a cut, you chose to cut on features that I rate among the least important. Obviously, though, if more cuts do follow, as you say is likely, it could have a more negative impact (depending on what is cut).

- I applaud your openness with information, something most other developers should strive to emulate.

- What is MOM2 ????

	14-09-2001 22:08									#16
	Support Apolyton

MOM2 = Master of Magic 2

	14-09-2001 22:11									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Thanks. What type of game is it??

	14-09-2001 22:12									#18
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Sorry, last question now. Where can I find more info on MOM2?

	14-09-2001 22:24									#19
	Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Stormhound MOM2 = Master of Magic 2

So has Quicksilver begun some work on MOM2?

	14-09-2001 22:31									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

So far as what type of game, the original Master of Magic was like a fantasy Civ. Your best bet for learning more about it is to search the web, because that's what I'D have to do to point you anywhere for more info.

QS (nor anyone else, for that matter) have not been contracted to work on MOM2. At this point, it's merely something we'd LIKE to do after MOO3, and we've approached Infogrames about the idea but there's nothing doing yet. If we actually DO get to do it, you can bet you'll hear about it just as soon as we're allowed to announce it.

	14-09-2001 22:47									#21
	Get a bigger avatar today!

I see. Thanks for your prompt replies.

	14-09-2001 23:44									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Stormhound: thanks for the info and the quick responses. It helps to have the feedback

I'd like to wish you and your company all the best on the game. . .

	15-09-2001 17:32									#23
	Another round Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Thanks to all of you for being so polite in response. I guess we've got most of the hotheads over on our forum.

Another pair of "if we have time" ideas got axed yesterday:

Battle simulator (this would've been a neat way to prototype ships, but we don't have time to code it up and I suspect it would've been a major drag on multiplayer pacing as well)

Space monsters (this one I'm rather more sanguine with; it would've taken another load of code and artwork time)

I'll continue to keep you informed. I wish we'd picked a better time to start announcing this stuff, but I guess if I was already feeling sick to my stomach a little more is hardly noticed.

	15-09-2001 19:27									#24
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Hmm, too bad about the team victory and space monsters.
But no matter how much you cut, I have no doubt that moo3 will be a great game!
It is not like there is a lack of features left in... I would rather worry about the game being overstretched or bloated (eg civ:ctp...)

Btw will there be news updates? There have been none on your website for 40 days?

	15-09-2001 20:35									#25
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The news updates have been taking a back seat...the person who's responsible for the web page is also one of the artists, and they have a big load of work to do. Quicksilver isn't a big company, so a full-time web person isn't in the budget. I think they may also be working on revamping the site a bit, but I'm rather less sure of that.

However, the forum is also a good place to get the news and discussion, and I'll also do my best to post some of the bigger bits over here as well.

	15-09-2001 22:32									#26
	Tired of ads?

Pity about the ethos system having to go; that looked pretty interesting.

C'est la vie.

	15-09-2001 23:18									#27
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Thanks Stormhound.

Can I make just one suggestion. For your website I think it would be good for you guys to just post that those items have been cut due to time and budget constraints. Just put it as a news item. That way those that don't post on either these forums or your forums have a way of finding out what is up.

It would be another way that you guys could contact the fans in a positive way. Thanks and keep up the great work.

	16-09-2001 01:43									#28
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

As soon as it doesn't affect the AI ability to manage the civilian things in your colonies, I don't mind the Ethos cut, though I ask : will there be some cultural and religious concepts to be remained, or everything on that matter is axed?

The only thing cut ( so far...) that makes me weep is the Space Creatures. I really liked them in MoO2 and added a brief but interesting sense of fantasy. Hope the remaining concepts to be reinforced to compensate......

	16-09-2001 03:54									#29
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

Hmm, too bad, the Ethos system seemed interesting. I can see why it was cut.

But why cut the team victory conditions? That would seem like a piece of cake to program. Granted, programing the AI to use it intelligently is another matter, and I don't know how complex that these conditions were. But even still...

Space Monsters will not be missed.

And as for the Annals of Space and Time, I'll settle for a mechanical retelling if not an embellished one.

	16-09-2001 06:33									#30
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I'm not aware of all the decisions behind the cuts (you miss out on a few meetings when you're 1700 miles from the home office), but I do know that there were some things that hadn't been developed enough and weren't going to have the time to get done properly. (As an ex-programmer, I wince every time someone says "oh, that'd be EASY to program", but be that as it may...)

Space Monsters, for instance, only had middling support and other than some basic design thought hadn't had any real work done on them...too easy a target not to get the axe.

Ethos, on the other hand, had had extensive design work, but touched practically everything and was proving a bear to model, let alone test. Way too big a beast, and way too much risk of whiffing badly if we took a swing anyhow, and too many other things that could be coded instead. Basically, it's completely out, though there'll be hooks left in various places in case it can be brought back in at some later point.
PS: It may be a few days before I'm back by, so hang in there. I'll respond to what's waiting for me after I've had a chance to unfrazzle.