16-10-2000 01:38									#1
	Destroying the manhattan project Full PM-box? Change here!

I was just rereading my civ2 manual for th umpteenth time, and reviewing that if a city with a wonder is destroyed, then the wonder in it is lost forever. I was wondering if you destroyed the city which built the manhattan project before any nukes were built, would nobody be able to build nukes EVER?
or is it just a switch that once thrown, stays on?

	16-10-2000 05:07									#2
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I just did a quick test and I discovered that you CANNOT destroy the city with the Manhattan Project.

Edit: I started a new game and used the cheat menu to give me all tech. I then built the MP in a city and let it be over run by barbs. I then recaptured it an even though the city was a size one it didn't die.

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[This message has been edited by Christantine The Great (edited October 15, 2000).]

	16-10-2000 05:51									#3
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Chris, you're wrong. I just did it. I cheated MP in a size 1 city with 1 defender, destroyed the defender, and boom, the city disappeared, and MP was said to be "Lost" on the wonders screen. And the nukes stayed in the game. This was a VERY quick test, so maybe someone else can do it more in depth.

	16-10-2000 06:29									#4
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Hmmnn... I can't help but wonder if it would do the same with the apollo program.
and Sandmonkey. the nukes stayed in the game, but could you still build more?
I could imagine a forced bloodlust in which you capture, starve, and turn into a settler the city with Apollo, the all civs can no longer make spaceship parts.
Nahh, that'd never happen

	16-10-2000 07:34									#5
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yeah, i just looked on the build orders, and you could still build nukes.

I think it's just a one time flag. Once it's set it doesn't matter what happens to the wonder.

	16-10-2000 07:37									#6
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Once the Manhatten Project or the Apollo Program has been built the ability to build nukes or SS parts is available to all civilizations. The trick is to destroy the shields of the city building the MP as often as needed to prevent the d*mn thing from ever being built!!!!
A hater of nuclear war!



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	16-10-2000 17:49									#7
	Full PM-box? Change here!

My thoughts exactly. In some games, no matter how hard you try to keep MP from being built, some small AI power builds it and out of nowhere nukes your peripheral cities. Even when you have a perfect reputation. I only wish you could destroy MP to end the threat of nuclear war. Good idea, but it won't work.

	17-10-2000 03:03									#8
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Sandmonkey what version did you use? I am using MGE.

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	17-10-2000 04:23									#9
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I was able to destroy the city in v. 2.42 and ToT v. 1.1.0 (that being the patched version). Maybe it's an MGE thing.

	17-10-2000 04:58									#10
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first off, da smokes gots ta ask, why da hell would anybody not want nukes. man, i love being nuked, and nuking others even more, and the MP is my top priority. then i just build nukes(to hell with the wonder once it's built) to answer, if the wonder dies, the nukes survuve, and we all build more. ( in real life, did nuke prodution stop after the manhatten progject was done?????????????????hell no!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, so why would the game do it???????

	17-10-2000 07:32									#11
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I would like to think dl, but it's the wrong forum for that...

	17-10-2000 10:10									#12
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Man its contagious Where's the moderator LOL

	17-10-2000 14:54									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

It may be the wrong forum, but that sure as hell smells of dl to me!
Ming, Ming where are you?
good civin'

	18-10-2000 03:07									#14
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I must agree with SandMonkey and SG1. Read some of the other posts\ topics by Smokey.

On topic I must say that that would be a good way to prevent nuclear war. Have an event that before the city is destroyed let all civs have two nukes as deterrents.

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[This message has been edited by jcarkey (edited October 17, 2000).]

	24-10-2000 09:43									#15
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The AI has no concience. If you gave each AI two nukes for deterrance, they'd nuke each other's nukes. If you were ahead, they'd also nuke you. MAD (mutually assured destruction) worked because the nuclear powers at the time all were controlled by people who want to go on living and who worry about mothers, brothers, children, etc. The AIs have none of these.

	24-10-2000 03:37									#16
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Yeah... And the damn AI NEVER EVER worries about the global warming when it nukes about one fifth of your cities...

	28-04-2001 06:54									#17
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been tweaking my rules.txt lately, and I've come up with something else. I can set the expiration tech of wonders. by default, manhattan project is set to "nil" but you could set it to, say, "Las" which means that with the discovery of the laser, the effects of the mahattan project expire.

Don't know if it would work, though. got to try it out.

if it does, you could do the same with Apollo, and hurry to get your ship done before someone discovers stealth and shuts you down

	28-04-2001 07:19									#18
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No Go. I tried it at an opportune time, and built da nuke project. I immediately built a nuke, then got the message "Stealth cancels the effect of Smokey Da Nuke Project", but I could still build nukes. nice try, but no cigar (unless you count a really tall radioactive cigar)

funny thing, the vikings nuked me the next turn. how'd they build one so fast?

	28-04-2001 07:33									#19
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I think people overlooked this with testing.

You can make MP go obsolete but you ALSO have to do it for the nuclear weapons.

For example just make nuclear weapons go obsolete with say the discovery of stealth and the bombers/fighters will replace the nuke on the city screen. FYI Unfortunately though the AI will still be able to build nukes until they get the technology to make them go obsolete.

	28-04-2001 23:56									#20
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I just tried building mahattan when it was ALREADY expired, and nukes still showed up on the build list. like a switch...

I never thought of that, chris. I need to look over my rules.txt and try it again. making the nukes themselves obsolete......

	29-04-2001 09:04									#21
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Allright! Thanks, chris. you got that one nailed.

I built manhattan, built a nuke, and was building another when I discovered stealth. the nuke I was building morphed into a stealth bomber. the nuke I had was still there.

the only drawback is that it's a civ specific thing, not a global. still, I think it shouldn't be that much of a hassle. makes for a narrow window for nukes, and you still have to watch out for the ones still around from then...

	01-05-2001 09:13									#22
	Full PM-box? Change here!

Isn't it somewhat silly to play with the rules to obsolete a tech you don't want? Why not just remove the weapon all together, if that's what your goal. While not endorsing Smokey's language, nuclear weapons are a modern reality that society's so have to deal with. I don't like 'em, but don't think the game is the same without them or at least the threat of them.