15-09-2001 00:16									#1
	Wonders of the World not showing up on the map? Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

In the interview he said that they aren't going to show wonders like the the Great Wall of China, or the Canal on the map...

Can anyone clarify this for me?

Thanks

	15-09-2001 00:26									#2
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Why should they, apart from out-of-scale eye-candy? I read that each tile represents about 200 square miles. Even though you have a city-icon that would cover that tile, most wonders would only be a building within a city (except for the Great Wall). There are quite a few things out-of-scale on the map, but they are their for user in interpret and interact with. No reason to add even more elements to the map when it serves no playable function.

	15-09-2001 01:21									#3
	I agree it would be eye candy, but... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In civ2, the Great Wall had a stupid effect, I'm sorry, it just wasn't fun. It gave all cities in your empire city walls and kept barbarians out- completely untrue to the real Great Wall. The Manchus broke through the wall and overthrew the Ming Dynasty to establish the Ch'ing dynasty (the last dynasty). Manchuria was where the Mongols originated, and the Wall did not keep the northern invaders out, obviously. I would much prefer not to have the strange intangable effect of wonders in this game that civ2 had.
And think of multiplayer! The Great Wall was FAR TOO POWERFUL in civ2 for multiplayer. They could make it just a string of fortresses, or something along those lines, that it would be a fast mode of ancient transportation while allowing units on one tile the Great Wall touches to actively defend another tile when an enemy moves onto it. Or something along those lines I'm very disappointed with most of what I heard in that article, but the removal of wonders from the map in particular seems like a lack of improvement on the old games to me.

	15-09-2001 03:10									#4
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The Great Wall was never supposed to keep barbarians out. It was to prevent them from leaving with their spoils. The barbarians had two choices when they came to it when they came back from China. One, abandon all of your loot and run away. Two, try to climb over with your loot and get your butt kicked by the Chinese army, who by then had surrounded you.

What do you mean "removal of wonders from the map."? They were never on it in the first place. You're probably thinking of the city view.

	15-09-2001 04:26									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Christantine The Great What do you mean "removal of wonders from the map."? They were never on it in the first place. You're probably thinking of the city view.

I thought that FIRAXIS said that when you build the great wall of china, or the panama canal then you see it on the screen. But now they say it doesn't fit in right or something like that in the latest interview.

	15-09-2001 12:12									#6
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wasnt there suposed to be sumething about wonder animations as well? i thought they were on the map but in the civfanatics interview they said there is only wonder "portraits" (see civ3 offical site in developer uptdate:wonders, on the screenshot "sir weve completed the oracle")

	15-09-2001 17:25									#7
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Firaxis in older previews had said that they were attempting to put wonders on the map. So the Great Wall would have spread across one of your borders. The Grand Canal would've connected two oceans. The ask-the-civ pretty much said that they've cut that option.

I think it is a safe assumption that because wonders are no longer on the map and there has been no mention of canals otherwise that there will be no Grand Canal and the only way to create the Panama or Suez canal will the the old Civ1 and Civ2 way of building a city on the site.

I really hope though that Firaxis does not completely abandon the canal idea and at least allows one-tile canals between oceans to be built by workers.

	15-09-2001 19:21									#8
	Christantine The Great Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

First of all, I would like to clarify things on this forum about the Great Wall, as I am a student of China, and have taken two trips to China already in my lifetime (In college).

The Great Wall was not a collective effort of all Chinese people to build a giant wall across the top of the unified nation. During the Warring States Period (fifth-third centuries BC) there were several major states that had power and were essentially content to remain independent. Some of these states were Qin, Jin, Chu, Song, Lu, Qi, Yan, Zhou, and some others. China was re-unified under the warrior emperor of Qin, Qin Shi Huangdi, in 221 BC. After the unification, Qin Shi Huandi noticed that there were a number of smaller walls all similar (relatively) in composition along the borders of the states he had conquered. It was ordered by the new emperor to have these walls connected, which they were. This was a time when siege weapons were primitive, and most battles were fought by horse and chariot armies. The geography of China allowed for sweeping victories, and for armies to conquer others with relative ease, when compared with European Geography, which made any one empire's control over the region nearly impossible.(as we have seen in history many times) I have been to the Great Wall personally, and can tell you that in many places, it sits high above treetops, up on the top of mountain ranges. Any army composed of primarily cavalry, which the northern raiders usually were, was very hard pressed to make it through the Wall, as sentries could be stationed all over, to see for miles around, and armies could again move very swiftly over Chinese Terrain. (not to mention the wall itself served as a mode of transportation.) This is also taking into account that not only were seige weapons primitive in the east when compared with Edward I's famous trebuchet of the High European Middle ages. The Reason the Great Wall is so misunderstood, is that you all view it from a European perspective. It was a defensive structure, which may seem hard to believe, but at the time it was practical, and it worked, it was a kind of early warning system for the Ancient Chinese. If any of you doubt me, read up on China, and then read up on the French Maginot line, an equally impractical defensive fortification, built because it would have been practical in WW1, but was totally useless in WW2.

Jump ahead to the Ming Dynasty- circa 1400's European Calendar. The Great Wall has fallen into disrepair, as it was not really needed for a thousand years. Suddenly northern raiders were again feared, and the Great Wall was rebuilt ( this is usually the time Europeans say the Wall was first completed). But alas, the rest of the World had surged forward, and China had seemed to stand still. In 1644, the Manchus finally broke through the Great Wall just north of Beijing , on the border of Hebei province. Their swift, well trained armies swept through China, and the Qing (Ch'ing) Dynasty was born.

	15-09-2001 19:24									#9
	By removal of wonders I meant... Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I had heard the firaxis disclosure that the Wall would be visible on the World map. As my favorite civs to play are the Chinese, Japanese, and sadly, the Mongols, I thought the idea sounded very good. I merely meant I thought the Great Wall was poorly handled in the previous games, and the new idea sounded much better to me.

	15-09-2001 20:41									#10
	Increase Your PM Length

TVA22, what part of that message was directed at me?

It really wouldn't have made a difference if the wall was visible on the world map. What would it do if it was, anyway? As you said it was to keep unorganized barbarians out, not an army with big seige equipment, like catapults or cannons. So if it was a terrain improvement it would be useless. Any smart invasion has seige equipment.

	16-09-2001 07:53									#11
	Christantine The Great Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Sorry if I sounded mean, or if I sounded as if I had a superiority complex or anything, I was just trying to clarify that the Great Wall was, in fact a defensive structure, and that on many forums, not just this one, I've seen so much misunderstanding about the Great Wall in real life.

So, I really am sorry if it seemed like I was picking on you. I was just trying to get your attention, as I was correcting what you said about it not being meant as a defensive structure, fyi, and for anyone who reads the forum at a later date.

I do see what you mean about the Wall not being practical in the game, because, you are right, any smart invasion does have seige weapons ... Although it is a game...(and I think wonders on the map would be more fun) My main gripe is, I would like to see some of the wonders on the map, I just hated some of the wonder effects in civ2, well, all of the previous civ games, and civ-rip-off games. (as you've probably gathered, I disliked the Great Wall's effect most of all) I just liked the idea of having the Great Wall on the map, and was only trying to defend my argument against incorrect info. No offense intended to you.

	16-09-2001 09:55									#12
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I don't think Firaxis said *all* wonders would now not be visible on the map. I thought they said that they had tried it and due to the scale it just didn't work. But I always thought the Great Wall and Canal would be on the map, regardless. And for those two wonders I think that's still the case.

	16-09-2001 20:26									#13
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quote: Originally posted by raingoon I don't think Firaxis said *all* wonders would now not be visible on the map. I thought they said that they had tried it and due to the scale it just didn't work. But I always thought the Great Wall and Canal would be on the map, regardless. And for those two wonders I think that's still the case.

That was the whole point of this thread!!! I was wondering if the Great Wall and the Canal would still be shown on the World Map. So, if someone from FIRAXIS could clarify it, then that would be great!!!

	17-09-2001 04:23									#14
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Where can I find this latest interview? Do you have a link or could you tell us the address?

	17-09-2001 04:44									#15
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quote: Originally posted by Falconius Where can I find this latest interview? Do you have a link or could you tell us the address?

Here it is:

CivFanatics: What Wonders of the World are visible on the map, besides the Great Walls?

Jeff Morris: We experimented with this, but ultimately found the scale was too much of an issue. When you build a wonder a gorgeous "wonder portrait" pops up over the main map. The wonders are then visible on the city aerial view screen.

The link to the interview is:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3inte...orris_913.shtml

	17-09-2001 14:05									#16
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quote: Originally posted by java4me CivFanatics: What Wonders of the World are visible on the map, besides the Great Walls? Jeff Morris: We experimented with this, but ultimately found the scale was too much of an issue. When you build a wonder a gorgeous "wonder portrait" pops up over the main map. The wonders are then visible on the city aerial view screen.

When I had read the interview I was stunned. Unbelievable! Scale is not an issue for units, nor for cities. Then suddendly scale is a problem for wonders?

On the funny side, now we know that Windows alert can be defined by Microsoft as "gorgeous portrait" of message, the same way Firaxis define the Civ III "postcard" as "gorgeous wonder portrait"

If Great Wall and Great Channel are out of main map view it will be another great opportunity missed by Civ III.
Yes, I can play without many elements, but if you stretch the concept too much, what is left is still enough?

On a game shop near my office are selling a new edition of the original "Civilisation" board game. May be I should give it a try: everything on the main map, not viable in SP but multiplayers ready out of the box...