29-09-2001 13:12									#31
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quote: Originally posted by Rakki A unique unit for the Israelites (or Hebrews or whateverchacallit) would be settler unit that comes with attack and defense.... I mean, in ancient times the Israelites must've been like some kind of barbarian migration wave, putting to the sword native populations and settling down in their stead...

...and to this very day. Good idea.

They should be Religious for sure. The other special ability is up for grabs, but if Jesus was born among them, they have to be religious.

	29-09-2001 17:27									#32
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IIRC, Jeevus was born with Jews, not Israelis.
Also, they should be industrious to represent how hard they work

	29-09-2001 23:17									#33
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Jews, Israelis, Israelites, and Hebrews are all the same people. They are just different names given to the same people by different people. Romans called them Jews, God called them Israelites, they now call themselves Israelis, and I don't know who ever started calling them Hebrews.

	30-09-2001 01:35									#34
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quote: Jews, Israelis, Israelites, and Hebrews are all the same people. They are just different names given to the same people by different people. Romans called them Jews, God called them Israelites, they now call themselves Israelis, and I don't know who ever started calling them Hebrews.

not true...the israelis. or israelites are citizens of ISRAEL. jews, or hebrews are members of the jewish faith.

	30-09-2001 01:41									#35
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for example, american jews dont consider themselves israeli

	30-09-2001 03:38									#36
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Religious and Commercial. ("Jewish Moneylenders are Out to Rule the World !"

	02-10-2001 22:56									#37
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Many people think that "Israeli" is "Citizen of the State of Israel", but the Jews were and are calling themselves Israel since Jacob's times. Another name for the Jews in Hebrew is Am Yisrael, the people of Israel. And it is used for both citizens of Israel and not citizens of Israel.

So, Jews=Israelis(in the TRUE definition of the word)=Hebrews(no one uses it)=Israelites.

	03-10-2001 05:10									#38
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Jew - derived (via Latin) from Hebrew word Yahoodi - ie Judean - a citizen of Judah. (one of the twelve tribes, later one of the 2 kingdoms - all other tribes (except Levi) were lost (lost tribes)

The distinction between a "religion" and a "people" is foriegn to Judaism - the Jews are a "people" chosen to serve G-d. While other people may serve G-d in their own way, to serve G-d in the Jewish way, one must belong to the Jewish people. While one who cease to serve or beleive in G-d may still be a member of the Jewish people, from the point of view of Judaism they have failed in what the Jewish people are all about.

An attempt to put this in terms that make sense to moderns is Kaplans formulation of Judaism as a Religious
Civilization (Italics mine, Kaplan died well before Civ 1 was released)

Hebrew is used occasionally in the bible, apparently derived from a generic word used by egyptians for desert nomads (apiru). Israelites is an archaic English translation of Bnai israel - children of israel - israeli is an attempt to sound more modern.

Jew, with its medieval connotations, its associations with awkwardness and backwardness, was avoided by 19th c western Jews, who called themselves Hebrews, israelites, or people of the "mosaic persuasion"(reminds us of some other ethnic groups, hmm?) 20thc Zionists proudly reclaimed the word Jew as a mark of strength and honour.

The word should be Jew - though anachronistic for the Davidic monarchy, it still covers it accurately, and is the best word for return under Ezra, 2nd commonwealth, and first and second revolts against Rome, and for both Jewish civ in diaspora, and modern Israelis. so not hebrews, israelites, or isrealis, the most all encompassing name is jew.

Though i suspect Sid lacks the nerve for that choice, and will go with one of the others.

LOTM

	03-10-2001 05:13									#39
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quote: Originally posted by Eli Many people think that "Israeli" is "Citizen of the State of Israel", but the Jews were and are calling themselves Israel since Jacob's times. Another name for the Jews in Hebrew is Am Yisrael, the people of Israel. And it is used for both citizens of Israel and not citizens of Israel. So, Jews=Israelis(in the TRUE definition of the word)=Hebrews(no one uses it)=Israelites.

bnai israel has alway meant all jews, and israel (or am yisrael)as a collective known in ENGLISH has often meant all Jews (when christians werent coopting the word to refer to the church) however the ENGLISH word Israeli has never been used for diaspora Jews, AFAIK. Israelite is another story.

Chag sameach
LOTM

	03-10-2001 05:22									#40
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Possible leaders other than David, Solomon, and modern Israeli PM's.


Ahab - gets a bad rap in the bible, but may have been a very powerful king.

Hezekiah - one of few kings to get good rap in the bible, king when Assyrian attack failed ("the assyrian came down like the wolf on the fold")

Josiah- great reformer king, may have been biblical authors model for David, gets best writeupin bible, helped to create later Judaism.

Deborah - judge and war leader, if they want a female a good alternative to Golda.

Ezra - leader and reformer during return to land under Persia, important both politically and culturally

Judah Maccabee - greatest military hero in Jewish lore before modern times - founded hasmonean kingdom.


Bar Kochba - reviled later as false messiah, led initially succesful revolt against Rome.

Maimonides - if we can go with someone who wasnt a political leader, he was religious scholar, philosopher, and physician, perhaps most important post-biblical cultural/religious figure.

Theodore Herzl - leader and inspirer of modern Zionism, though never a head of state, he was very much a political leader, and visionary of the Jewish nation. While unconventional, he would be a worthy choice.

LOTM

	18-11-2001 11:26									#41
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I'd vote Hebrews. In common English, Israelite refers to ancient Israel, and Israeli refers to modern Israel. Hebrew encompasses both. Of course I'd prefer Am Yisrael or Bnei Yisrael, but neither is intelligible to the English speaking world.
Nation: Israel
Adj.: Hebrew
Noun: Hebrews

Leader: Soloman-- clearly the best leader of ancient Israel (though Josiah would give him a run for his money). The civ should be directed towards ancient Israel, since that period is when we had the most impact on the world. The State of Israel, disconnected from Jewish history, does not merit inclusion.

Generals: Joshua, Devorah, Sampson, David, Joeb, Judah Maccabee, Shimon Bar Kochba, Moshe Dayan

Trait: Religious/Commercial. Religious is clear-- that's been Israel's major impact on the world, the spread of its morals and religious values getting adopted by 3 billion people. I'd vote commercial because during the Middle Ages (in both the Islamic and Christian worlds) Jews made their living as small merchants and money lenders (being the only people allowed to charge interest, and being kept from most professions by law).

Wonders of the World to add:
The Great Temple-- Functions like a temple in every city (to denote how the Temple centralized religious worship), builds Palace in city (to denote how Temple solidified Jerusalem's place as Israel's eternal capital), and grants advance of Monotheism

The Bible-- Makes every Temple function like a library (i.e. to indicate the wide spread of literacy promoted by religious education in Jewish history), grants advance of Monotheism.

	18-11-2001 22:36									#42
	Not religious, for crying out loud. Increase Your PM Length

People, I urge you to give the history books another long look. The hebrew/jews/Israelies (whatever) culture was never specifically religious per say. If you want to give it a proper civ outlook, think that this is the first civ that discovered the technology "Monotheism". It is never was a religious nation:! It was just the first to develop a monotheist nation. Along most of jewish history, especially when it was a kingdom the majority of the jews were non-practicing. If you open up the bible, especially on the books of the kings, you will read all about the people who "forgot their faith".

Religion was never a very strong part of jewish culture, and it just something that glued them toghter. But then again, remember that every nation in the past was a single religion nation, mostly. Religion was far greater part in the every day life of Rome and Greek culture, but no one here suggests that we should make them religious, now do we?

Now, please, reconsider. Israel is not a religion culture. It is obivously a militaristic one, with maybe commerciliam or science in addition. But certainly not religion.

The problem here as I see it is a lot of forgien people having a very strong and distorted views about the middle east. Israel is not a religious nation: not now, not ever. It has a dominant faith: but hey, so does Italy, and England, India and Japan. The hebrew kingsoms also always had allies tribes inside them: today there are the Baudin and Druz, in the older times it was the Saumatons and Adominans slaves. Not to mention, as I said, the majority of the Kingdom of Israel was almost always non-practicing (sometimes a local form of polytheism).

	22-11-2001 09:58									#43
	Jewish civilization not religious? Full PM-box? Change here!

Huh? Has God been kicked out of public schools in Israel as well as the USA? What politically correct professor told you that? Granted, modern Israel is a secular state (perhaps even more secular than the USA, at least when I visited in 1985); but Jewish/Israeli/Hebrew civilization not religious? Its roots, trunk, and branches show the pruning of its husbandman. I know all Israelis are not religious, but its civilization is....its language, its history, its culture, its attachment to its land based on the promise that no matter what happened, God would bring them back someday. I'm just a goy meshuganah, but even I can see the hand of God on Israel's past, present, and future.

	22-11-2001 15:25									#44
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Harel, how can you say something like that?
Don't forget that today's moral values are founded on the jewish/christian religious values! Judaism is what made the Israelites known through the whole world! Even if the people weren't very devoted (and, acording to the Bible, they paid for it ), they where for many centuries considered by God His chosen people!

In Civ 3 they really must be considered a religious Civ.
And maybe industrious.

	22-11-2001 16:26									#45
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Of course the Hebrew civ should be made Religious. After all much parts of its history is centered around the belief of being the god's chosen people etc.

Actually, they share (especially in the historical ancient times) many common characteristics with other Religious civs in Civ3, such as Aztec, Japanese etc. - i.e. the centering of culture around Religion (or at least deep spirituality, as the case may be with Japanese) and justification/explanation of many activities and/or phenomenons by Religious paradigm.

So definitely Religious.

For second characteristic, of course Commercial.

	22-11-2001 18:54									#46
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I vote for "Judeans", as in the Judean Peoples Front, with John Cleese as the leader.

BTW, not the Peoples Front of Judea = ****ers.

	23-11-2001 02:13									#47
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I hope that the two characteristics are either:
a) Religious and Commercial, or
b) Religious and Scientific.

Rulers could be David or Solomon or Moses, or Golda Meir for female ruler.

Great leaders should include Joshua, Caleb, Gideon, Deborah, Joab, Josiah, Elijah, Judas Maccabee ( or all of the Maccabee brothers), Bar Kochba, Maimonides, Achiva, Haim Herzog, Theodor Herzl, Albert Einstein, Moshe Dayan, Menachem Begin, Ben Gurion, .....and Barbara Striesand (just kidding!)

For the special unit I would have to favor either:

the Maccabee (maybe with greater defense value or greater mobility, since they knew their home's terrain and geography better than invaders) or

a Mossad unit (sort of a super spy unit --maybe it could be invisible even to other civ's spies, or have a higher success rate at certain activities, or better mobility rate).

	23-11-2001 15:23									#48
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I'm sorry to disagree Mac, but I think the UU should be the Zealots.

	24-11-2001 03:43									#49
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Unique unit should be armed settler with move 2, oh yes!

I vote for name being Jews... we call ourselves Yehudim, after the ancient kingdom of Yehuda - latinized, it's Judea, of with Israel (pronounced more like Yisrael, accent on e) was a split-off.

	24-11-2001 03:44									#50
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Hebrews or Israelites give them more of an ancient feel which is nice for a game like this.

I would also suggest making them religious/scientific.

	24-11-2001 13:45									#51
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Another Israeli!

Get ICQ ASAP and come to the OT!