15-09-2001 20:24									#1
	Hebrew/Israelis Support Apolyton

It is time to continue with the name selection of the 16 most wanted civs for an expansion pack.
This time we are facing the Hebrew/Israelis.

Also try to describe the Civ, and find possible Unique Units and leaders.

Other POLLs in the series:
Turks/Ottomans
Phoenicians/Carthaginians
Ethiopians/Aksumites

Last edited by Gramphos on 15-09-2001 at 21:12

	16-09-2001 00:20									#2
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Israelis is out, as far as I'm concerned, because this only refers to the country which came into being in 1948.
For the Old People you can choose between Hebrews (with an s!), Israelites, or Jews. I would prefer Israelites.

	16-09-2001 00:42									#3
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Hmm? Since Hebrews didn't do much of anything, I have to go with the Israelis (not that I think they are more important that the Mali, Javanese, Spaniards, or Polacks).

	16-09-2001 00:59									#4
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Civ: Jews
Leader: David

	16-09-2001 01:23									#5
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Jews doesn't work, it refers to their religion, not their nation.

The other two are pretty interchangeable, but I'd prefer israel, israelite.

David is a good leader, but I think solomon would be best.

	16-09-2001 02:01									#6
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I would prefer Hebrew because that is how they existed for many years without a nation... however, as a civilization, they were better known as the Israelites- thus, I suppose I'll vote Israelite, however, I feel that Hebrew sounds better

	16-09-2001 02:10									#7
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I would prefer Israelites. I would also make David their leader. He was the most significant king their people ever had, although it is true that Solomon possessed more sheer wealth. God gave Solomon peace, but David was a warrior (the "mighty men of David" are famous). All things considered, I'd pick David as the first choice and Moses as the second. Ask a Hebrew person who the two greatest figures in their history are and they will likely pick David and Moses as much as anyone else (except for maybe Abraham). By the way, though they may not have contributed as many lasting things to the world as other civs, they still exist today and many others do not. They're as old as nearly any other civ and are still here. Very few can make that same claim.

	16-09-2001 07:35									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Oldenbarnevelt Israelis is out, as far as I'm concerned, because this only refers to the country which came into being in 1948. For the Old People you can choose between Hebrews (with an s!), Israelites, or Jews. I would prefer Israelites.

The ancient tribe was know as the Hebrew. I believe it was later (Time of Mose) they were know as the Israelites and then later as Israel and Judea, and then later (time of Jesus) know by the area they were born. Jewish is the Religion only, not the area. Many people claim the Jewish Religion who are not Hebrew or Israelis.

	16-09-2001 07:56									#9
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There used to be a large follwoing of the jewish religion (or some slight variant ) down around ethiopia. Its believed that elgends of this land mutated into the Pastor John myth which later led the portuegese on many a wild goose chase.

	16-09-2001 09:24									#10
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How 'bout the Yids? Billy Crystal as leader.

	17-09-2001 14:12									#11
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Hebrew(ala romans-not Italians)
Abraham
Swordsman-Spy

	19-09-2001 16:57									#12
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Other leader:
Golda Meyr,Ben Gurion?
other unit:
Slinger

	19-09-2001 17:06									#13
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Hebrew
David

	20-09-2001 18:36									#14
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A) Jews - is not a religious definition, because i'm, as an atheist, not less of a Jew than some big rabbi. It is not an ethnic definition either though.

B) The Jews were calling themselves Israel since 3000 years ago. The name wasnt invented in 1948.
David, was the King of the Kingdom of Israel, today we have the State of Israel.

So, Israel should be the name, David the leader and I have no idea what the special unit should be.

	20-09-2001 18:43									#15
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And no modern Israeli leader deserves to be the civ leader, the 50+ years of the existance of the State of Israel and the events happened during this time is nothing special if you look on the Israeli history. Modern Israel and the modern return to Zion is no less important than the return to Zion in the 5th century BC, and that is why Ben Gurion(not to mention Golda) has no higher importance whatsoever over Nehamiah or Ezra who were the leaders in that period.

The "Golden Age" of Israel was with no doubt during the rule of David and Solomon. Just look on the maps.

	21-09-2001 00:18									#16
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God renamed Jacob to Israel. Thereafter, God's people were known as Israelites as often as any other name. To term them Jews connotes religion. Terming them Isrealites properly identifies the ethnic group that began with Abraham and has continued to the present day. As for Hebrews, I wouldn't have a problem with it as I believe it to essentially be a descriptor for the Israelites. I would say the only real difference between the two is that Israelites denotes a nation as much as a people, and Hebrew a people as much as a nation (if that makes any sense).

I also vote for David. My next choice would be Moses. David is still revered amongst Israelites and his deeds rival no other leader of that people. He was a king and a prophet and he led a great army (Joab gets some of the credit for that too). Moses was a great moral leader of the people and, like David, is still revered by the Israelites. Abraham fits both billings as well, but my personal preference is for one of the other two. Unless you go with modern leaders, there are really no other choices, aside from perhaps Solomon (and I would vote against him for a variety of reasons).

	23-09-2001 17:32									#17
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Btw, do anyone remembers this nation to be ever portrayed as a civ even in a scenario from Microprose/Infogrames? Cause I can't and I was wondering.....
So, perhaps all this debating is in vain..
And an addition to my earlier post:
Units -> Merkava tank, F-15(I think only nation perhaps with Spain and I think Saudi Arabia,that has some outside the U.S. Yes I know this is the American unit)

	23-09-2001 19:44									#18
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A) Only in CTP games.

B) With all do the respect to the present, I prefer games to be more history based.

	24-09-2001 16:17									#19
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quote: Originally posted by Eli A) Only in CTP games

Exactly my point...
And it's still not ther in Civ3..I don't know why?
Does anyone?

	26-09-2001 00:58									#20
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I agree with Eli mostly.

Not Israelites, but Israelis.

Hebrews is nice, but it's the tribal name. Since then we changed our trade mark to Sons of Israel(tm) (Israel is Jacob's second name).

Israelites is the international term. The hebrew bible says sons of Israel or in early days Hebrews.

Israel is the name of the first kingdom, later split up into Israel and Judea following Solomon's sins and the conflicts during the tiems of Reahv'am and Yerov'am.

I see David as a greater leader, since he shows great enginuity better than solomon. Based on the jewish history, we sometimes have moments of enginuity, but we're definetly not wise.

David is also a young army man, unlike the bratty weiner Solomon who's king because of his mommy.


The special units shouldn't be a slinger since slingers were special units of David's tribe, not the whole of Israel. We didnt' actually have any special units back then, even though our golden age was definetliy then.

I say our speical unit should be now the Merkava. Either that or a special Mossad Agent.

Our specialities, Commercial & Scientific.

One can justly claim we're militaristic, but in my opinion we're just living in a bad neighbourhood.

	26-09-2001 02:24									#21
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i agree. they should be the ISRAELIS. because their is enough ancient units already, they should have the late industrial age FREEDOM FIGHTERS as their UU. They could have a biblical leader or a modern one like ... bengurion(?) ... wadya think?

	26-09-2001 02:28									#22
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also they should be
religious-
... industrious (fits better than others and makes sense)

	26-09-2001 03:24									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Internationalist Btw, do anyone remembers this nation to be ever portrayed as a civ even in a scenario from Microprose/Infogrames? Cause I can't and I was wondering..... So, perhaps all this debating is in vain.. And an addition to my earlier post: Units -> Merkava tank, F-15(I think only nation perhaps with Spain and I think Saudi Arabia,that has some outside the U.S. Yes I know this is the American unit)

In the Gulf War scenario under (Best of the Best)
F-15 In used with Israel, Saudi Arabia, Japan and the US. I might be wrong but do not remember Spain flying the F-15.

	26-09-2001 03:58									#24
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My vote goes to Hebrew. Because the last part of the word is brew.

	26-09-2001 08:27									#25
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It's really a shame that Israel isn't included in CIV because the kingdom of David, Solomon, and their heritage, was quite a powerful ancient kingdom.

Hebrew probably isn't a good reference to this kingdom, since the word Hebrew (people that crossed the river) doesn't necessarily refer to only the Isrealites/Jews.

The word Jew is somewhat derived from 'Judah': one of the tribes that remained faithful to the Isrealite southern kingdom that continued its worship in Jerusalem after Solomon's kingdom split in two.

Isreal would probably be best.

	26-09-2001 15:44									#26
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Ha! 29 to 10. Eli, you'll take the name we give you, and you'll like it.



Who's yer daddy?

	27-09-2001 00:01									#27
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ok, ok. u won. but did anyone here realize that all or most of the people here who were Israeli ( ) or jewish (me) voted for ISRAELI.

	27-09-2001 00:53									#28
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Okay, but there's still some issues to be worked out ^_^

Take the format

Nation: Babylon
Adjective: Babylonian
Tribe: Babylonians

Nation: Zulu Land
Adjective: Zulu
Tribe: Zulus

Nation: France
Adjective: French
Tribe: French

And how do we apply this to the Hebrews? My suggestion would be:

Nation: Israel
Adjective: Israeli
Tribe: Hebrews

But we could also do:

Nation: Israel
Adjective: Hebrew
Tribe: Hebrews

	29-09-2001 04:47									#29
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quote: Originally posted by jdd2007 ok, ok. u won. but did anyone here realize that all or most of the people here who were Israeli ( ) or jewish (me) voted for ISRAELI.

Hey, get ICQ so we can plan our take over. We always need more forces.

	29-09-2001 05:13									#30
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A unique unit for the Israelites (or Hebrews or whateverchacallit) would be settler unit that comes with attack and defense.... I mean, in ancient times the Israelites must've been like some kind of barbarian migration wave, putting to the sword native populations and settling down in their stead...