26-04-2001 01:04									#1
	Does anyone actually build Gararies in civ2? Suffering from ads?

Granaries: sorry for the typo.

I've been playing civ 1 until just recently when I finally switched over to civ2. I must say that the flow of the game (and consequently my startegy) needs to be quite different.
In civ1 for example, the first improvement I usually built in my cities was a granary to promote growth. In civ2 however this seems to throw many cities out of whack early on in the game causing unhappiness and general instability all around. In my latest game (on king level) I built granaries very sparingly and in only my slowest growing cities and things seemed to go a lot smoother.
I was wondering how the experienced civ2 players used granaries. When is the best time to build them. Or should they be built at all?

[This message has been edited by Hundred Waters (edited April 25, 2001).]

	26-04-2001 02:10									#2
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Hundred Waters,

Welcome to Civ2. As you go up in levels early city growth becomes more and more difficult to deal with. I tend to build few if any improvements in the early game, preferring instead to expand with many tiny cities, so my comments will be pretty biased.

Graneries (and even the Pyramids) can be a liability in the early game due to the unhappiness large cities bring. The only place I'll build a granery is in my Super Science City (SSC) since I want it to grow large and am willing to buy it stuff to keep it happy. The rest of my cities languish granery-free.

Even in my late game I generally don't build any graneries. Rapid growth can come through We Love the Leader Days if need be.

	26-04-2001 02:23									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Granaries are useful in cities specialized to production of settlers IMHO. Especially in the beginning of the game.
[This message has been edited by SlowThinker (edited April 25, 2001).]

	26-04-2001 03:49									#4
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Absolutely!! In fact, granary is usually my second city improvement (right after temple). But it depends on your style of play. I'm perfectionist expansionist, so I'm pumping out a lot of settlers, but not until the city is about size 3. Those extra sheafs of grain are huge, quickly making up for the cost of the granary.

	26-04-2001 04:56									#5
	Increase Your PM Length

Ouch! I'd generally say no to granaries, at least on deity. I find it easier and quicker to control growth using WLTXD's. Even if a cities only producing settlers - unless you're rushbuilding them all - the city has plenty of time to grow. I think I saw it posted that someone found that as the city size decreased the food box added a couple of sheaves. If you've built a city for defensive purposes on a mountain then it may need some help.

EOL

	26-04-2001 06:21									#6
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

Yes! At the higher levels, the unhappiness caused by too rapid expansion is a pain. But whenever a city has slow growth (food surplus 2 or 1), I build a granary. This is especially useful if you utilize a mountain resource - they produce no food, cutting back growth.

------------------
"There is no fortress impregnable to an ass laden with gold."
-Philip of Macedon

	26-04-2001 15:18									#7
	Tired of ads?

A straightforward strategy to adopt is to steadily expand (always building new settlers at the periphery and founding new cities) but to stay in Monarchy for a looong time so as to keep usable shield production high. In this strategy a granary in each city is a good idea and, indeed, giving Masonry some priority and building the Pyramids as wonder of first choice is a good notion. This will feel very familiar to a Civ player.

In Civ2 deity combatting unhappiness and corruption is a challenge for this strategy. If it is being successful you can expect to reach the point where the first two citizens are double unhappies. But the game provides the needful means to overcome this. Trade is very important.

The real challenge for that strat is finding ways to hit all the A1 civs hard enough while devoting most of your production to development and continued expansion.

But, say, you pursue a different strategy, say early republic. Now you will plan to get the growth you want from WLT-Ds. Granaries are rarely now going to be of any real help for a long time.

And if you ICS (that is build an infinite number of cities each of which pumps out settlers, caravans and combat units staying at size two with no improvements) I am sure you never build them at all.

There are three special cases which I believe apply in all strats bar ICS. The first is the early city with one or more grain specials. This city can pump out the settlers you need for your early expansion and a granary will help it to do so with maximum efficiency. It's a bit like having one suitable city build a barracks so that your defenders/offensive units are all vets.

The second case comes late in fully developed cities. It is worth keeping their (by now very large) food box reasonably full because, in all likelihood they will grow (through WLT-Ds)to a point where the city does not fully sustain its population. With a large, half full foodbox decreasing by just one or two wheatsheaves a turn it will take longer than the game lasts for this city to reach starvation point. Without a late granary, though, it may well reach that point. Which doesn't matter a right lot but the cost of the late granary seems to me well off set by keeping a specialist or two at work for the last twenty or thirty turns.

The third case also arises late. If you are like me, you like to go on planting cities right through the game. I love to grow all those late cities rapidly (and I usually have nearly unlimited funds with which to do it). So my first improvement is a rushed granary - to help the city get to size three quickly. My second improvement is a courthouse (for the extra happy face in democracy). That makes the city celebrate as soon as it reaches size three. If I now rush harbours followed by all the happy improvements (marketplace, bank, stock exchange, superhighways) I can keep these late cities celebrating and growing apace.

Bottom line, though. You have correctly identified that, leaving particular situations to one side, the granary is one of the least important of the city improvements. It took me a lot longer than you to realise that fact.
[This message has been edited by East Street Trader (edited April 26, 2001).]

	26-04-2001 16:18									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I build a granary in one specific situation: when I'm using food caravans to achieve WLTxD growth under a non-representative government. With a granary, it takes one food caravan per turn to grow the city; without a granary it takes two caravans per turn. A very worthwhile investment in my book.

	27-04-2001 01:26									#10
	Got spare money?

There are only two reasons for building granaries:

* you have let someone else build the Pyramids first
[and can not easily capture the Pyramids' city]

* you are founding new cities and you have cash to spare
[rush buy them in size one new cities just before food
fills up; that way you can get to size 3 twice as fast
before putting up luxury under WLTK under a democratic
or representative government.]

	27-04-2001 11:01									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

granaries rock but build the Pyramids so you have it in all cities.

	27-04-2001 18:44									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

In MP, if you know the game is only going to last one long session, The Pyramid is a sure fire way to look good on the final powergraph
Otherwise, you need to use WLYD's to compete. If you are locked in warfare with a neighbor, it allows you to continue the fight... something that is sometimes hard to do early in a representative government.

I usually only build graneries as suggested above. If I have a city using mountain resources, I might build one so that it can grow faster. While Pyramid is high on my list after the happiness wonders (in MP), I don't build graneries... too busy building more settlers

	28-04-2001 08:03									#13
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

JB used to build granaries. that is a pretty good endorsement...

	29-04-2001 11:31									#14
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Granaries are incredibly important if you want to crank out 5 villies at the speed of 3. Build them at the first 2 cities that you found. Make sure to build lots of garrisons (crappy warriors) to keep the peace. I never build temples until at least the discovery of philosophy. Until then, make sure you build enough villies to decrease growth and enough warriors to control the pop.

	29-04-2001 16:58									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Granaries are the second impreovement after the temple for my cities.

My favorite strategy is to build very few cities (8-10) and make the VERY quickly collosally HUGE in population, economy and trade. I am a hopeless perfectionist.

This strategy has never failed me.

The only exception to this rule is when I play Deity or go to conquer the world (very rarely because it bores me).

WLT_D can be very effective too but I am seldom liked by my people since I give everything I have to technology advances in order to be light years ahead of everybody else.

	30-04-2001 02:19									#16
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

[quote]Originally posted by Ming on 04-27-2001 09:44 AM
In MP, if you know the game is only going to last one long session, The Pyramid is a sure fire way to look good on the final powergraph
quote]

I love the pyramids..... i know it bs as far as the powergraph goes....after all pop is way overated......

However..... fast growth does lead to more workers which means more shields and more trade...... Most use WLT*D to grow..... its quick and done right its efficient. Add the pyramids to this and your cooking.

Last night i wandered till 3250 in an MP game which gernerally means a quick death..... one guy had a size 3 and a 2 on the top five and the other guy had two size 2 cities.... end of the game i was first in population. I had crap land...hills and plains mainly and had i icsed they would have been in trouble.... but thats another story based on hindsight etc....

I had only one wonder and not as much science as the others but i was holding my own.... i wasn't a monarchy until 1850 bc..... so screw happy wonders.... i firmly believe they only make it easier to win .... learning to play without them as i have done so many times now i feel as though i am a better player.

As a rule though i don't build granaries not unless i have Adam Smiths.... and even then i build them after i have it and when i can't build libraries, markets, barracks, or coastal fortresses etc....... so they are waaaaaaaay down on my list.

	30-04-2001 10:53									#17
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Like War4 I don't build granaries. I WLTLD.

I am a multiplayer at Deity level.

------------------
Founder, Dear Leader and Great Helmsman of PROT -the People's Republic of Topics www.delphi.com/prot1

	01-05-2001 08:59									#20
	Suffering from ads?

I'll build granaries in 1x, but not 2x.
I'll also consider Pyramids in 1x.
Power Graphs are a snapshot in time, over valuing population.

------------------
It's In The Way That You Use It
Tuatha De Danann Tribe

	04-05-2001 02:05									#22
	Inflate your Upload Space

Ajli appears to be referring to "villies" as villagers. He builds 5 in the time for 3 (an exact effect of granaries). He then builds enough to "slow growth," which I take to mean use up all the good food squares.

I build granaries in the later game for cities where I can't get their excess food above one. Expanding cities with food caravans does work better with granaries in place. However, on Deity, granaries are a big hassle in the early game so the Pyramids are way overrated in that period.

	04-05-2001 08:10									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I don't think I have ever built a granery in civ 2 If I wanted their effects I would build the pyramids. Now I don't want to build the pyramids (I play at emporer) because it will cause riots way too easily. I just wait till I have a few happy wonders then take over the pyramids city. If there is a granary in a city I buy or take over I will leave it there till I get pyramids but I never build them. Waste of shields and money b4 adam smiths.