18-09-2001 20:15									#1
	Poll about leader art Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

What do you think about the artist who did the leader heads?
Definitely the next Leonardo.
Adequate to the task.
Mediocre hack.
Even worse than Firaxis` PR people.
I want his head!

	18-09-2001 20:23									#2
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I'm tired of hearing people whining about the leader head art. Are they photorealistic representations of the real life leaders? No. But, I can stand to look at them and readily distinguish them. I'd rather that civ3 have these leaders and give me a little enjoyment than be one bland history lesson. If you don't like them, fine! Go ahead and design your own leader pictures.

	18-09-2001 20:30									#3
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Same, kyller. I'm tired of people complaining about what they wanted different in the game. Firaxis will give us a good game. I wish the whining would stop.

	18-09-2001 20:41									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

its only leader art

	18-09-2001 20:57									#5
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

in civ2 i turned off the diplomacy screen altoghether, just dealed with the popups

anyway, i could really care less about the leader graphics

	18-09-2001 21:10									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Leader graphics aren't that great but they aren't that bad either. I would say they are average quality...

KoalaBear33

	18-09-2001 21:31									#7
	Hit the nail right on the leader's head Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Who is the tiny head on the Civ 3 site with dark hair and glasses? Is is supposed to be Sid? Whoever it is, he looks just like Jack Benny. Does Sid have a butler named Rochester?

As regards the leader head art, I don't much care. To be blunt, there is an awful lot of sniping here and if I were a Firaxis employee I'd avoid these forums altogether. "I want this! I want that! I won't buy it if it doesn't have this feature!" Look, I rather doubt that the threat of failing to buy Civ 3 by a small minority impresses the folks at Firaxis. Don't buy it then. Just stop reminding us about it week after week. Personally, the most legitimate gripe in my mind is the lack of MP. However, no MP is a fact of life. Wait to buy it, suffer with SP until it's available...just please stop beating that dead horse. I would venture a guess that many of the most vocal critics will buy the game by Christmas anyway.

	18-09-2001 23:00									#8
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I like the leader head designs. They may seem a bit cartoonish but they're definately entertaining. I am a great lover of aesthetics so graphic portrayels of leaders, unit icons et al., and menu displays are all important to me as well as the fun factor and quality AI in strat games.

	18-09-2001 23:07									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I'm not complaining or anything, and I think the animations for the leaders are a nice touch, but how can I respect a leader that looks like that? I'll look at them and declare war, and there's no turning back. Then I'll have no resources and i'll lose. The leaders really cramp my style.

	19-09-2001 21:24									#10
	Is THAT Alexander? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I thought at first it was Caesar, but they say the one dude is Alexander the Great. WHAT?? That doesn't look like ANY representation I've ever seen of him from contemporary depictions. He was young, but the animation looks like a 50 year old. And wasn't he supposed to be quite the stud? I'd hate to think the Firaxis team let his sexual predilictions color their thinking, thus making look like an effeminate fop because he liked to get it on with other guys. Such a stereotype would not be cool. (Trust me, there are plenty of ultra-butch gay men in my neighborhood alone, not to mention the rest of NYC).

My apologies if this is a subject that has already been harped on. Firaxis--don't do this to Alexander! I think the Civ I depiction was much much better.

BG

	19-09-2001 21:25									#11
	Oh, BTW Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Sorry if the previous post was sounding critical! Aside from Alexander, I think the leader portraits are outstanding. I am quite excited about the game.

BG

	19-09-2001 22:22									#12
	Re: Is THAT Alexander? Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by Boris Godunov Firaxis--don't do this to Alexander! I think the Civ I depiction was much much better. BG

They may be changing his picture as we speak. He was missing from the pre-order box but all the other 15 leaders were there. Plus they changed Cleo because of all the complaints that she was inaccurately dark.

And the leader art isn't that bad. Sure it isn't perfect, but it's pretty damn good for a computer model. They could have gotten actors to dress up and spend lots of resources making it as perfect as possible, but...erm...how to say this...IT'S A COMPUTER GAME! Besides, I'd much rather have them devoting good resources to other aspects of the game.

	20-09-2001 01:22									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Actually, I really like the leader art a lot. Especially the fact that they went through the trouble of changing the graphics from era to era. The `Making of' video included a pic of Joan of Arc in a cave woman get-up which was really funny. All the leaders are unique and distinctive looking and fit in well with what we've seen of the whole look and feel of the game. I honestly don't think we could have asked for beter leaders.

I will agree however, that the Civ1 depiction of Alexander was MUCH more in line of how I've always envisioned him, and the Civ3 one just dosn't look right. I'm not sure they're changing him just because of he's not on the pre-order box though. In fact, I really rather doubt it. The box was made up a long time ago, I think, and still includes the darker Cleopatra. I think the same old Alexander was in the video as well, and hopes that he's being changed are probably just wishful thinking. This comes down to taste and personal opinion though. Presumably Firaxis has some basis behind their particular depiction.

I really would have HATED digitized video of leaders, BTW. Blech. No worse way of making your game look like a cheasy early ninties `interactive movie' then digitized video. Bad bad bad. The digitized video of wonder movies in CivII were good, but digitized people are almost universally awful.

I'm very much looking forward to playing against the leaders we've got coming in CivIII. I'd be even happier if they were larger, ala CivI.

Joe

	20-09-2001 02:26									#14
	Support Apolyton

get over it!!! can u recognise most the faces? not alex? well look at the screen, u idiot!!! ALEXANDER THE GREAT OF THE GREEKS!!! who cares, i mean we dont have any photos of the guy ...

	20-09-2001 05:24									#15
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: get over it!!! can u recognise most the faces? not alex? well look at the screen, u idiot!!! ALEXANDER THE GREAT OF THE GREEKS!!! who cares, i mean we dont have any photos of the guy

Who are you yelling at? And why are you being such a jerk about it? Forget the meds this morning?

	20-09-2001 05:37									#16
	Re: Hit the nail right on the leader's head Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by civcop Who is the tiny head on the Civ 3 site with dark hair and glasses? Is is supposed to be Sid? Whoever it is, he looks just like Jack Benny. Does Sid have a butler named Rochester? As regards the leader head art, I don't much care. To be blunt, there is an awful lot of sniping here and if I were a Firaxis employee I'd avoid these forums altogether. "I want this! I want that! I won't buy it if it doesn't have this feature!" Look, I rather doubt that the threat of failing to buy Civ 3 by a small minority impresses the folks at Firaxis. Don't buy it then. Just stop reminding us about it week after week. Personally, the most legitimate gripe in my mind is the lack of MP. However, no MP is a fact of life. Wait to buy it, suffer with SP until it's available...just please stop beating that dead horse. I would venture a guess that many of the most vocal critics will buy the game by Christmas anyway.

another FINE example of a newbie to the forums being the most clear-headed of us all. Thank you very much for your fine perspecitve.

	20-09-2001 05:51									#17
	Right-o Full PM-box? Change here!

The dwelling on the silly minutae (and believe me, I love all things Civ) on this forum is getting to be a bore. Who do these guys think they are fooling with the childish threats?

The fact is, we've all waited for so long to get Civ3, it's clearly going to be quite awesome, MP or no at first, so I wager every single person posting on this forum is going to buy it sooner or later.

I plan to buy it ASAP. I plan to play it SP for hours and hours. I plan to post endless messages on this forum about how cool it is. If there is anyone here still whining and making threats about not buying, my bet is they will quickly change their minds when they see everyone posting how great it is.

How's that for confidence in the product?

	20-09-2001 07:36									#18
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I don't understand people who don't understand complaining about leader art. Why not? If it didn't matter at all we'd all be happy with stick figures, right? Of course I will still buy the game the first day it comes out; of course I will play until I pass out at the keyboard from hunger and exhaustion! But that doesn't mean I can't look at a turkey of a picture and say hey, that's not gonna fly. Old Cleopatra and Alexander are (were) the biggest turkeys. The rest vary from OK to good, but these two really got my goat. It's just inexcusable (surely they knew Cleo was a Ptolomy? Surely they knew Alex died at -- what -- 33, not 55?).

Come on, I don't want photorealistic, cheesy early-90s pics either, but that's not to say I have to be happy with ridiculous and ugly historical inaccuracies! It doesn't take any more effort to make decent looking, historically accurate leader art than it takes to make art that looks stupid and is inaccurate. And those of you who say you don't care, I don't believe you. What if Firaxians used pics of themselves to represent the leaders? What if Sid was Alexander the Great? If you don't like that, then tell me why you're happy with an Alexander that looks more like Caesar?

I could go on, you know...

	20-09-2001 08:30									#19
	Increase Your PM Length

I think they will be animated, no?

	20-09-2001 12:51									#20
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Who are you yelling at? And why are you being such a jerk about it? Forget the meds this morning?

sorry if i seemed like that.

	20-09-2001 14:16									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by El hidalgo I don't understand people who don't understand complaining about leader art. Why not? If it didn't matter at all we'd all be happy with stick figures, right? Of course I will still buy the game the first day it comes out; of course I will play until I pass out at the keyboard from hunger and exhaustion! But that doesn't mean I can't look at a turkey of a picture and say hey, that's not gonna fly. Old Cleopatra and Alexander are (were) the biggest turkeys. The rest vary from OK to good, but these two really got my goat. It's just inexcusable (surely they knew Cleo was a Ptolomy? Surely they knew Alex died at -- what -- 33, not 55?). Come on, I don't want photorealistic, cheesy early-90s pics either, but that's not to say I have to be happy with ridiculous and ugly historical inaccuracies! It doesn't take any more effort to make decent looking, historically accurate leader art than it takes to make art that looks stupid and is inaccurate. And those of you who say you don't care, I don't believe you. What if Firaxians used pics of themselves to represent the leaders? What if Sid was Alexander the Great? If you don't like that, then tell me why you're happy with an Alexander that looks more like Caesar? I could go on, you know...

i admit, you do have a point. but after all, we did get them to change cleo, and it has been pointed out that all leaders except alexander are on the preorder box, so...

	20-09-2001 17:52									#22
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I think the leader art is extremely well done, it gives the individual leaders a lot of personality, something that was missing in previous incarnations.

	20-09-2001 17:58									#23
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

quote: Originally posted by El hidalgo I don't understand people who don't understand complaining about leader art. Why not?

I couldn't agree more, which is why my first post is a complaint about Alexander the Apparently Mediocre At Best. I certainly don't have a problem with people voicing complaints.

What I DO have a gripe with are those that take ridiculously extreme positions about things that really aren't all that important to the enjoyment of the game. And I REALLY dislike the posts that are basically cursing out Firaxis OVER THINGS THAT WE STILL DON'T KNOW ABOUT. Most people haven't even bought the friggin' game and they're complaining as if they got a lemon. I think this sucks since Firaxis, by their very presence here, has shown a million times more respect and concern for the gamers than any other software developer I can think of. How would you feel if you were working on a project 16 hours a day, putting your heart into it, and folks were *****ing about it before they even knew what it was like? I think that really sucks.

I implore everyone here to think before they speak, be kind in their critiques and RELAX a little. As the events of the last week have shown, this game isn't all that important. It's meant for fun, so chill.

Cheers.

	20-09-2001 18:20									#24
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by monkspider I think the leader art is extremely well done, it gives the individual leaders a lot of personality, something that was missing in previous incarnations.

By and large, I agree. I just strongly disagree with their choices in depicting a few, such as Alexander. The Cleopatra thing didn't bother me as much, honestly. Though it should be mentioned that in truth, according to contemporary depictions, she wasn't all that beautiful. In fact, she was quite plain looking by today's standards.

Cheers.

	20-09-2001 19:22									#25
	Increase Your PM Length

C'mon, Elizabeth looks like Tim Curry in Rock Horror. The designs are just too cartoonish for my tastes. Hopefully they can all be replaced with photographs - that may eliminate the animations but I never cared about animations so there you go.

quote: Most people haven't even bought the friggin' game and they're complaining as if they got a lemon.

only one problem here. We HAVE seen the leader pics and many of the animations for the leaders. Because we have seen so much of the leaders, I say its fair to criticize.

	20-09-2001 19:35									#26
	Tired of ads?

Yeah, they're a bit toony for my taste too. I'd like to see a better Alexander though... and well all of them. I am glad for teh Cleopatra change, so maybe they'll take our input into account again. We should be able to complain about the leader art. All the leaders are ugly (Catherine especially). Some are innacurate (the old Cleopoatra, Alexander) and others still are bizarre (Elizabeth). So far I am happiest with Hiawatha (ironically, since I don't support the inclusion of the Iroquois). He looks normal, like he could lead a country and accurate (except for the buildings in the background). Quality leader pics doesn't seem like too much to ask...