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Ozymandous is offline Ozymandous
Prince
Atlanta, GA
Aug 2001
time: 00:15
  Old Post 19-09-2001 15:33
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Landing on planets, moons, etc... Tired of ads?

Hi!

This may have already been covered over on at moo3.com but I haven't finished reading all of the stuff over there yet (especially the forums, good gawd at all the posts!).

Anywho, my question is this... Will players be able to land on any planet as soon as it is discovered? I remember fondly back in MOO how you'd find a great world, except it was radiated, toxic, barren, etc so you had to wait until you had the technology to land there.

In MOO2 the player could land virtually anywhere right off the bat, which to me took some of the "exploration" spice out of the game.

So how will this be handled in MOO3? Since it is supposedly taking place after the first two games I would think the ability to land anywhere would still be there (since it was in MOO2) but I am hoping there will be some difficulties a player has to overcome before they can just land a colony ship, pod, etc on any planet and start a new city/colony.

Anyone know for sure?

Stormhound is offline Stormhound
Prince
New Jersey
Jan 1970
time: 00:15
  Old Post 19-09-2001 17:20
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I'm going to try to keep this answer brief, which will be tough because the system is SO different in MOO3.

First off, the terraforming: forget everything you ever knew about terraforming from MOO1/2. Yes, EVERYTHING. Even that. And that too. Got that mind empty? Good.

There is a two-dimensional grid in MOO3, one dimension for temperature, and the other for atmosphere. Each planet occupies a specific point on that grid. Each species has a preferred point on that grid. Ranging out from that point are multiple zones: green, yellow, red. A planet in the green zone is good for your species, and can be settled without any problems. A planet in the yellow zone will require some additional support; a planet in the red zone will require extensive extra support (like domed cities). Thus, a perfect planet for you could be a real hell-hole for your neighbor, and some technology will be required to colonize certain worlds (though it won't follow the same system as MOO1).

When you terraform a planet, you drag it across the grid toward your preferred point. The planet will tend to resist this, which means that you'll have to pay (increasing) maintenance to keep it from reverting (the possibiliity of changes becoming permanent is under discussion as to whether and how). If someone else took over the planet and started to terraform it, they'd drag it in their preferred direction.
That's the very basic answer.

Thue is offline Thue
Freeciv Developer
Copenhagen, Denmark
Jan 1970
time: 06:15
  Old Post 19-09-2001 22:41 Visit Thue's homepage!
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Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

Please make it possible to make permanent changes. Changing things permanently is the very soul of a builder-type player . If you think it is unbalancing then just make it expensive, but please make it possible to make it permanent.

pchang is offline pchang
King
Cupertino?
Aug 1999
time: 05:15
  Old Post 19-09-2001 23:35
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No Permanency Inflate your Upload Space

I disagree. Planets should revert to their normal mode. Besides, under the present system, the changes are permanent, as long as you pay the maintenence fees.

pchang is offline pchang
King
Cupertino?
Aug 1999
time: 05:15
  Old Post 19-09-2001 23:48
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It would also be great if you could blockade planets. Planets which could not afford to pay the terraforming maintenance fees on their own would slowly revert back to their natural condition.

ravagon is offline ravagon
King
Australia
Sep 1999
time: 13:15
Post  Old Post 20-09-2001 08:19
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Inflate your Upload Space

This 2d grid system sounds a lot like that in Pax Imperia. Those blasted rock people ( ) will have very wide ranges and most of the planets they colonize will be green/yellow.

Question: Can you choose which aspect of the planetary environment you wish to terraform (Temp/atmos)?
If your race were nearly finished researching a tech for some form of thermal shielding for example, you would probably wish to concentrate on terraforming atmosphere rather than temperature knowing that temp would become less of a problem in the future. Or am I assuming to much about the research/tech tree?

Ozymandous is offline Ozymandous
Prince
Atlanta, GA
Aug 2001
time: 00:15
  Old Post 20-09-2001 14:16
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Hmm, sounds interesting!

I will admit I am surprised that gravity wasn't a third point on the chart. Yes I know that it would be virtually impossible to change gravity (at least hard to me, but then again I don't have a degree in geology, etc) but wouldn't gravity also contribute on how habitable a planet is?

For example, if your race is used to a wet type atmosphere/(think Amazon rainforest except it never STOPS raining ) on a hellishly hot world (like mercury maybe) but low gravity, then it wouldn't matter if you found a perfectly temp and climate planet if the gravity was 5 times what you were used to.

This would make a difference IMHO, question is, does anything like this exist now, or is gravity considered part of the "atmosphere"?

Stormhound is offline Stormhound
Prince
New Jersey
Jan 1970
time: 00:15
  Old Post 20-09-2001 14:55
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Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

All races will have bands of the same width, and the galaxy creation has already been set up to give every races approximately the same amount of prime real estate.

There isn't a 3rd dimension largely because you can't display three dimensions on a two-dimensional screen in a way that gives you the information at a glance. This is a place where "game" trumps "realism". Effectively, gravity is a part of atmosphere.

So far as selecting which dimension one changes...I'll have to see what info I can pry out of the guy who's working on those details.

TCO is offline TCO
Emperor
Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:15
  Old Post 20-09-2001 15:23
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Perhaps you could make gravity an unchangeable feature. (off map so to speak wrt the 2-D graph. Would be a good idea for MOO4.

Bleyn is offline Bleyn
Warlord

Aug 2001
time: 21:15
  Old Post 20-09-2001 17:13
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Re: No Permanency Tired of ads?

quote:
Originally posted by pchang
I disagree. Planets should revert to their normal mode. Besides, under the present system, the changes are permanent, as long as you pay the maintenence fees.


I dunno. I think it sort of depends on what sort of changes you made.

For example, if we were to use a solar shade to fimbulwinter Venus, then ran the former atmosphere through some processing units to remove enough of the greenhouse gases, we could probably remove the solar shade with a pretty good chance of the planet not running into the out of control greenhouse effect system that it is now. Though I think the rotational period might give us a few fits in the process.

But hey, even if it didn't work out too well, just the thought of fimbulwintering Venus is sort of cool in its own right. I wonder if we could get NASA to pay for it?

u972163 is offline u972163
Settler

Sep 2001
time: 05:15
  Old Post 21-09-2001 10:47
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Inflate your Upload Space

I really like the new consept of colonizing/terraforming.
I think it should be possible to make the changes permanent if the planet is in your green/yellow zone. If youre colonizing a planet in the red zone, well, youre asking for trouble..

Stormhound is offline Stormhound
Prince
New Jersey
Jan 1970
time: 00:15
  Old Post 21-09-2001 14:49
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I'll also point out that terraforming will be a MUCH slower process than in prior MOOs.

pchang is offline pchang
King
Cupertino?
Aug 1999
time: 05:15
  Old Post 21-09-2001 18:14
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Much slower or much more expensive? I like expensive better. That way, if you really want to empty the treasury to speed things up a bit, you have that option.

Stormhound is offline Stormhound
Prince
New Jersey
Jan 1970
time: 00:15
  Old Post 21-09-2001 18:39
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Inflate your Upload Space

Both, actually. It will certainly take more than just a few turns to convert planets from hell-hole to paradise, no matter how much money you throw at it.

Alan's fond of pointing out that just because it takes one woman nine months to make a baby, you can't get the job done in one month by assigning nine women to it. The principle shows up in various places in MOO3.

Master Marcus is offline Master Marcus
Prince
Quebec, Canada
Jan 2000
time: 00:15
Lightbulb  Old Post 21-09-2001 19:14
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So I guess the "deterraforming" or reverting process, natural or not, within the game or not, is also a very slow one ( the first time i enjoyed that concept for some reverting planets was in Asimov's Foundation and Earth ).

pchang is offline pchang
King
Cupertino?
Aug 1999
time: 05:15
  Old Post 21-09-2001 19:19
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So, what about the concept of blockading a planet or solar system? Will this be possible?

Stormhound is offline Stormhound
Prince
New Jersey
Jan 1970
time: 00:15
  Old Post 21-09-2001 19:48
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Enter the AD-FREE zone

I believe blockades will be possible, but I don't have much information on whether or how they would work.

TCO is offline TCO
Emperor
Richmond, VA
Jan 1970
time: 00:15
  Old Post 21-09-2001 23:47
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What areas of the game are you familiar with? (Serious question).

Stormhound is offline Stormhound
Prince
New Jersey
Jan 1970
time: 00:15
  Old Post 22-09-2001 00:16
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Put an end to popups!

Quite a few, but it's an awfully big game. Most of what I've done has had to do with government (including diplomacy) and population, as well as technology. For this game, that covers a lot of ground. On the other hand, I've not had more than peripheral involvement in space or ground combat.

Just to give you some idea, there have been 6 different people doing design work on this game (and 5 of those still are), and Alan is the lead designer. That's not counting the guys working on AI, the programmers, the contributions of other members of QS...

ember is offline ember
Warlord
Waterloo, Ontario, Canada
Apr 1999
time: 00:15
  Old Post 23-09-2001 21:38
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If you realy wanted to have gravity involved, you could have the gravity control how wide the "suitibility bands" are. If its at exactally your homeworlds graity, you get very wide bands, but if its completly opposite, tehn the bands are only pixels wide.

If terafirming is not permanent , at least make it very slow to revert.

Even better would be 25% of whatever change you make is permanent, slowly increaing over time. Keep a planet stable for a couple millenina and it pretty much stays where you left it.

jdlessl is offline jdlessl
Warlord
Jacksonville, USA
Mar 2000
time: 00:15
  Old Post 26-09-2001 00:41
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I really don't like the not-permanent aspect of terraforming. The whole idea is that you take an essentially dead planet and give it the self-correcting, self-perpetuating ecology that, for various reasons, it was never able to develop on its own.

For a terrestrial analogy, go read Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel". The part about European colonization of Australia; due to a number of factors, civilization could not arise there, but it could be and indeed was transplanted.

Similarly, the biggest hurdle in terraforming is getting the project going. Take Mars for instance. It can't support Earth animals, it can't support Earth plants, it might just barely be able to support Earth micro-organisms. So the process of converting all that CO2 has to be done by us. But once we get the air pressure high enough and enough topsoil developed, then the transplanted organisms will be able to take over the job of converting the atmosphere. If all goes well, it's not something that needs to be maintained, with the possible exception of mirrors in orbit to add sunlight.

How about spotting the grid with planet classes. One would be a oxygen-nitrogen-carbon system, another using something like chlorine, an lifeless airless planet, a runaway greenhouse system like Venus, etc, etc (Planetology is a fairly unknown field, so they'll have to take some creative liscenses for this). Left to its own devices, a planet of a class gravitates towards a single point on the grid. But each has a sphere of influence so to speak on the grid and attempts to move it away take effort. But once you move it out of one sphere and into another, your job becomes easier because then it gravitates towards the new point. The terraforming takes over and heads towards its own balanced system.

Regarding gravity, it should be a factor in determining how expensive terraforming will be. Again, we don't know really well how gravity affects life-supporting atmospheres, but they could just say that anything in the 1/2 to 2G area is relatively easy but outside of that range it gets very expensive.

--
Jared Lessl

Anun Ik Oba is offline Anun Ik Oba
Emperor
Grace of God
Sep 1999
time: 00:15
  Old Post 27-09-2001 09:55
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Remove this text

MOO3 is sounding very juicy- I want a big slab of it please!

November Adam is offline November Adam
Prince
Calgary, AB, Canada
Jul 2001
time: 22:15
  Old Post 29-09-2001 02:33
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Can planets lose their green/yellow/red class via industrial purposes.. thinking green house affect, etc?

If so would this tend to make races that live in inhospitable climates more industrially inclined?

Stormhound is offline Stormhound
Prince
New Jersey
Jan 1970
time: 00:15
  Old Post 29-09-2001 05:14
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I'm still trying to pry loose some details from one of the other designers, but I don't think that industry will affect the planet's status in that way (for the reason noted below). Whether it will affect the biodiversity level (which helps determine things like the population limit, bioharvest output, and so on) I'm not quite sure.

"Inhospitable" is a relative thing. The races and galaxy are balanced so that everyone gets their fair share of turf, so I don't think it'd be wise to have industry or similar things push the planet in only one direction.

November Adam is offline November Adam
Prince
Calgary, AB, Canada
Jul 2001
time: 22:15
  Old Post 29-09-2001 09:46
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Good thinking... I was thinking along the lines of game balance as well, so at least that is one thing that wouldn't unbalance it.

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