28-09-2001 00:30									#61
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Realizing that the MPers are BOTH the most informed players on Apolyton and way too arrogant for their own good, I'll venture that Mark is trying to maintain some order in the midst of constant demands. Yes, I read the Civ II MP forum all the time. The players mostly admit their games do not cover the whole spectrum of civ advances and that the programming of the AI interests them not, except to make fun of it. Nonetheless, the time to add strat, create, and MP threads to the Civ 3 forum is when the game is released, not ahead of time. In the meantime, it wouldn't hurt for the MPers to mix it up a bit with the hoi poloi. Sheesh! The only time AH and Ming agree is when they are trying to convince Mark to let them be free from the "lesser" wretches.

	28-09-2001 01:06									#62
	We bowed to your manifest magnificence Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by MarkG after seeing the response to sits' threads in the civ3-general and the civ2/civ3 threads in the civ2-mp i still think there isnt enough actual interest to open the civ3-mp before it's time

Mark, we aren't posting any new threads on civ III in the Civ II MP forum because you closed about 6. If we were allowed there are several issues we would like to discuss.

Also, there is a longstanding precedent for this. Over the past year or so, as I'm sure Ming can confirm, there have been svereal threads about civ III - usually reporting news about it to the civ II MP community or commenting on development on Civ III MP. Sometimes just telling people to go to the Civ III forum to discuss an issue. You didn't close any of those threads.

So please go back to your earlier tolerant stance.

	28-09-2001 07:19									#63
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: Originally posted by MarkG rah, after seeing the response to sits' threads in the civ3-general and the civ2/civ3 threads in the civ2-mp i still think there isnt enough actual interest to open the civ3-mp before it's time beyond that, i'm wondering if you have any idea why there are no requests for the civ3-stategy or the civ3-creation forums to open earlier, even though there is much more info on these areas than multiplayer....

Mark - I suspect the reason people aren't jumping up and down for a Civ3-stategy or Civ3-creation is that no-one is flaming threads that relate to those topics nor is anyone starting threads 'Strategy is so boring....' etc. Yet this is happening to MP threads on a regular basis. I suspect the reason for the disapointing response to my threads is that they are quite easily lost in the chatter and the (sometimes) non-sense. A Civ3-MP forum will allow a proper discussion and also set out on-topic guidelines so if a SP'er starts messing around in the MP forum he can be removed. A MP forum isn't designed for posters to only look at that forum but to provide a focus for a subject that is very important to a lot of people on these boards.

	28-09-2001 10:27									#64
	Re: We bowed to your manifest magnificence Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Mark, we aren't posting any new threads on civ III in the Civ II MP forum because you closed about 6. If we were allowed there are several issues we would like to discuss.

the threads i closed where either about civ3 having no mp, an issue for which there were many (and popular) threads on civ3-general, or about a civ3-mp forum, an issue which also didnt belong there...

if you used your time actually discussing about civ3-mp instead of participating in this thread, we might not have to do this discussion. unless of course you're having more fun this way....

	28-09-2001 10:32									#65
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by SITS I suspect the reason for the disapointing response to my threads is that they are quite easily lost in the chatter and the (sometimes) non-sense.

and where is the huge civ2-mp community which asks for a civ3-mp forum but cant keep an actuall discussion on page 1?

quote: A Civ3-MP forum will allow a proper discussion and also set out on-topic guidelines so if a SP'er starts messing around in the MP forum he can be removed.

if someone creates a problem in a thread you can report it to the admins....

	28-09-2001 14:12									#66
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

MARK, please respond to my request. AS I"VE ALREADY STATED

"I think you're right, not enough to open up a CIV 3 MP yet. So just don't close any MP discussions in the MP 2 forum. That's all we/I ask. "

AS stated, I give up, you're right already, we don't need a civ3 MP forum yet. OK oK Ok.

But, can we disucss civ3 mp concepts in the civ2 mp forum?

I thought it was a simple question, but you have dodged it again.

RAH

	28-09-2001 22:10									#67
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rant deleted....

Last edited by ColdWizard on 01-10-2001 at 21:15

	02-10-2001 17:37									#69
	An unlikely alliance Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

I agree with Rah no point in making a separate forum for civ 3 MP , but I see no problem incorporating Civ 3 MP into Civ 2 MP... Perhaps a trial run to see the effect if any, and maybe a poll of current Civ 2 MP forum to see if thats what they want.

	02-10-2001 17:43									#70
	Full PM-box? Change here!

the civ2-mp forum is for civ2-mp discussions

the example of GP's threads in the civ3-general show that civ3-mp discussion can work just fine in the civ3-general forum...

	02-10-2001 21:04									#71
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by SITS Mark - I suspect the reason people aren't jumping up and down for a Civ3-stategy or Civ3-creation is that no-one is flaming threads that relate to those topics nor is anyone starting threads 'Strategy is so boring....' etc. Yet this is happening to MP threads on a regular basis. I suspect the reason for the disapointing response to my threads is that they are quite easily lost in the chatter and the (sometimes) non-sense. A Civ3-MP forum will allow a proper discussion and also set out on-topic guidelines so if a SP'er starts messing around in the MP forum he can be removed. A MP forum isn't designed for posters to only look at that forum but to provide a focus for a subject that is very important to a lot of people on these boards.

Oh come on. Don't be so weak-hearted. Mix it up a little with the great unwashed...Talk to someone who doesn't agree with you. Don't be so worried about flames. Sheesh is that calling the kettle black...(AH)

You guys sound like the GameLeague guys when they were insisting on having OT discussions in GL.

	02-10-2001 23:31									#72
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untill the game comes out, all that's there is repitition repitition repitition. I used to go there regularly but have since stopped. Too much boring clutter. And all the garbage of MP delays have disheartened me. I'll continue to frequent the forums that I use now until the game comes out. I have no interest.

RAH
Pretty depressing for an Optimist. (oh that's right, Mark killed that too)

	03-10-2001 04:26									#73
	Let's hack it Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by MarkG the example of GP's threads in the civ3-general show that civ3-mp discussion can work just fine in the civ3-general forum...

Did we ever say it wouldn't? Not the point really.

One thing I would really like to discuss with my civ MP buddies is if Civ 3 will have MP code which we can enable Both Civ II (simult) and CTP II (PBEM) had features which you could enable if you knew how.

	03-10-2001 19:50									#74
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by MarkG the civ2-mp forum is for civ2-mp discussions the example of GP's threads in the civ3-general show that civ3-mp discussion can work just fine in the civ3-general forum...

Ok, I thought I'd be nice and check out these highly touted threads that prove the rest of us are full of crap.



I've played over 100 different people in MP games and not a single one of them had posted in any of those highly touted threads. And half the posts were from people that have never played an MP game in there life. Real relevant

So my original arguement still stands, and your's doesn't.

Why can't the civ2 mp COMMUNITY discuss whatever the heck they want in the forum you set up for us to discuss things amoung our COMMUNITY as long as it relates to the game?


RAH
Thoroughly disgusted with the anti-community stance taken by the administration here.

	03-10-2001 20:43									#75
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by rah I've played over 100 different people in MP games and not a single one of them had posted in any of those highly touted threads

which means that the people interested in civ3-mp are a much bigger group than the people who often post in the civ2-mp forum...

quote: Why can't the civ2 mp COMMUNITY discuss whatever the heck they want in the forum you set up for us to discuss things amoung our COMMUNITY as long as it relates to the game?

first of all, civ2 is one thing, civ3 is another...

second, the civ2-mp forum is a collection of threads on civ2-mp
it's not a club for civ2-mp players where they can discuss whatever they want....

	03-10-2001 21:11									#76
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by MarkG which means that the people interested in civ3-mp are a much bigger group than the people who often post in the civ2-mp forum... first of all, civ2 is one thing, civ3 is another... second, the civ2-mp forum is a collection of threads on civ2-mp it's not a club for civ2-mp players where they can discuss whatever they want....

How about renaming it Civ-MP then people can post on-topic about Multiplayer in Civ games. It would save the 'trouble' of opening a new forum and it would have strong community base from Civ2 players. A win-win situation....

	03-10-2001 21:17									#77
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by SITS How about renaming it Civ-MP then people can post on-topic about Multiplayer in Civ games. It would save the 'trouble' of opening a new forum and it would have strong community base from Civ2 players. A win-win situation....

But what will happen when we start playing Civ3 MP?
I guess that having it all in the same forum could be good, but it would confuse players, and some players would not know if a thread is about Civ2 or Civ3.

	03-10-2001 21:30									#78
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Gramphos But what will happen when we start playing Civ3 MP? I guess that having it all in the same forum could be good, but it would confuse players, and some players would not know if a thread is about Civ2 or Civ3.

In the SMAC MP forums we talk about both SMAC and SMAX - it doesn't seem to be a major hindrance. The thing is Civ2 MP's are, for the most part, going to be main players of Civ3 MP. Giving people the opportunity to talk about it in a forum that is designed for them is, for me, entirely reasonable.

	03-10-2001 21:31									#79
	Get a bigger avatar today!

if and when civ 3 comes out then we can ask for it to be split back into civ 2mp and civ 3 mp , but right now just a plai nand simple civ MP sounfd good

	03-10-2001 22:11									#80
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

.

Attachment: frusty.gif
This has been downloaded 32 time(s).

	03-10-2001 23:01									#81
	Remove this text

Thank you Cold Wiz, you've summed it up perfectly.

And Mark
which means that the people interested in civ3-mp are a much bigger group than the people who often post in the civ2-mp forum...

That is lame and laughable. Count the number of unique people that posted there and tell me one more time how much bigger it is than the number posting in CIV2 MP. Now remove the SPers that are basically spamming there. Not even close.

But Mainly you missed the COMMUNITY point, It's the large group of people that I play with are the one's who I want to discuss it with. We used to be able to do that here.

But Cold WIZ is right, you've made your stance, repeated and repeated lame arguements ignoring what's been said. I think people would think better of you if you changed your mind here, but obviously you think you would lose face or something because your stubborness on this issue borders on the insane.
But it's your site, and I respect your desire to manage it how you choose. It is your right, and I will bow to it.

So I give up. We'll just continue to do what we have and work around anything you consider too blatant and close.


RAH

	04-10-2001 00:08									#82
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Originally posted by rah That is lame and laughable. Count the number of unique people that posted there and tell me one more time how much bigger it is than the number posting in CIV2 MP.

did i say that the entire group of people who are interested in civ3-mp posted in that thread?

quote: But Mainly you missed the COMMUNITY point, It's the large group of people that I play with are the one's who I want to discuss it with.

perhaps you should begin to realize that the people playing civ2-mp today are not the entire future civ3-mp community. and that these forums is one big community not a group of small private clubs

quote: But Cold WIZ is right, you've made your stance, repeated and repeated lame arguements ignoring what's been said. I think people would think better of you if you changed your mind here, but obviously you think you would lose face or something because your stubborness on this issue borders on the insane.

first of all, i have discussed this endlessly and have tried to show you that there is a way to achieve what you want. the fact is though that there isnt enough interest right now to discuss civ3-mp even in the civ2-mp forum!

second, my intention on this site is not for people to think i'm a nice person. my intention here is to provide a good service. and you cant have a good forum service when threads which are supposed to be in one forum end up in other forums. you also cant have a good forum service when you have empty forums because they were created before their time.


so, once again: forums are defined by a specific topic, not by the people who post in them

	04-10-2001 00:12									#83
	Full PM-box? Change here!

(I'm picturing that guy butting heads with the ram to protect his Coors Light)

I do have one question, Mark, is it a big deal to add another forum? (I don't imagine it takes a lot to just do it, so are we like, at the point where adding one or two more will cross some esoteric threshhold and force a major hardware, software or license upgrade?)

On the editorial side, Mark, is it really so terrible for CIV2-MP people to talk about CIV3-MP in the CIV2-MP forum, like there is a really sharp enforced boundary between this forum and the OT threads. The community sort of decides what it likes automatically; if noone responds to CIV3 posts there, the posters will post somewhere else.

On the other hand, is it that bad posting CIV3-MP stuff in the CIV3-General forum? Maybe we can dream up titles which sound boring to SP people; maybe the SP people will get tired of spamming MP topics?

Being predominently a user of the SMAC forums, I can say that (if you were going to) it would be better to put CIV3 discusions into the SMAC-General than into the SMAC-MP forum which is nearly all game turns and game sollicitations and which quickly buries threads below page 1. I see, however, that the CIV2-MP forum is not like that, having both actual discussions and a slower thyread-initiation rate, but I wouldn't have otherwise looked in there expecting to find discussions about CIV3-MP.

SMAC players, for the most part, are almost as likely as CIV2 players to be interested in CIV3 (and in many cases are both CIV2 and SMAC players). There has been occasional discussion of CIV3 in the SMAC-General threads (although if truth be told, there is much more discussion about the nonexistent SMAC2). I haven't noticed either of these subjects getting censored, although stuff does get moved (with pointers left behind) sometimes. However, if I feel like checking up on CIV3, I would abe much more likely to expect to find it in the CIV3 area than in the CIV2 area.

And yes, the MP discussions in the CIV3-General area are cluttered with offputting posts of one kind or the other, flames and counter-flames, quotes and rebuttals and rebuttals of the rebuttals and so on so that any CONTENT IS BURIED UNDERNEATH THE CHAFF. Furthermore, there is quite a lot of activity on the CIV3-General forum and MP related threads do get bumped to page 2 and going to page 2 is a drag because the site is not always the fastest etc.; and Mark, in case you are reading this far before giving me a one of your quick soundbite brushoffs, explaining to unreasonable people why you are annoyed is called being patient and providing constructive feedback (it is not called whining - except by impatient annoying unreasonable people).

Need I point out how all of the above will apply even more so when the game is available?

So, my vote would be for CIV3-MP being added - unless there is some compelling (as yet unspoken) reason why this would be such a terrible thing.

	04-10-2001 00:32									#84
	Support Apolyton

johndmuller,

on creating a new forum or enforcing "ontopicness", please refer to my comments on my previous post on how i consider a good forum service should be run

btw,

quote: However, if I feel like checking up on CIV3, I would abe much more likely to expect to find it in the CIV3 area than in the CIV2 area

well, that's the whole idea of forums having topics, and discussions on one topic not being separated in various forums....

quote: the MP discussions in the CIV3-General area are cluttered with offputting posts of one kind or the other, flames and counter-flames, quotes and rebuttals and rebuttals of the rebuttals and so on so that any CONTENT IS BURIED UNDERNEATH THE CHAFF.

the sollution is not to spread discussions in more forums. the sollution is simply learning to discuss in a proper manner

quote: Furthermore, there is quite a lot of activity on the CIV3-General forum and MP related threads do get bumped to page 2 and going to page 2 is a drag

you can subscribe to threads that interest you and keep track of them from your control panel

as for responding to "unreasonable people", i'm a human being which tries to run a site. i'm not an employee in a customer service department of a company. sometimes i tend to reply on the tone that i'm addressed. some other time i tend not to reply simply so that i dont reply in a way that i shoulndt reply

lastly, it goes without saying that there will be a civ3-mp forum on the day of the release(if civ3 has mp that is). i never denied such a thing.

	04-10-2001 00:51									#85
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

God, I promised that I would give this useless effort up, but I couldn't resist.


"perhaps you should begin to realize that the people playing civ2-mp today are not the entire future civ3-mp community. and that these forums is one big community not a group of small private clubs"

THERE IS NO CIV3 MP yet and that community doesn't matter to me (YET). It's the civ2 MP community that I have fought with for all these years that I want to discuss things with. I have never once asked for a CIV3 MP forum but you keep saying there is no need for one yet. (I AGREED WITH YOU ON THAT 30 posts ago, please stop saying that when you're discussing my comments)

Not a group of small private clubs. (obviously you haven't checked out the CTP forums recently, how, small can you get.)
I won't mention all the others.

Wasn't that the whole idea of different forums, so like people could get together to discuss like ideas.

80% of the CIV3 general forum has been a spam fest for the last month. So bad that I've stopped going there. Maybe if you fixed that, I would be willing to discuss MP there. But untill then, I will continue to talk with others in the (real/exisiting) MP community in the Civ2 forum.

RAH

	04-10-2001 01:07									#86
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

you are free to not care about some stuff, i'm not

	04-10-2001 01:55									#87
	Support Apolyton

What the heck does that have to do with it?

I was trying to speak my mind as a member of the CIV2 MP community. I know you have different concerns, I was just trying to voice ours. I really don't believe you've really listened yet.

YES I KNOW YOU ARE THINKING OF THE SITE, you've made that clear till I'm ready to puke. AND I AGREE THAT IT"S YOUR DECISION.

I've been in "customer service" longer than you've been alive.
RULE Number 1 is that each customer should be treated as an individual and be made to feel special.
EVEN if it takes trickery, scamming or whatever. (but if you use those, you better not get caught )

You have done neither here. And I guess I'm only irritated because I expected better from you, based on previous experience. But as all small shops grow, that personal service is always the first thing to go. Which is why a lot of small shops can't maintain the same success at the next level.

RAH

	04-10-2001 04:15									#88
	You are certainly succeeding on that point!! Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by MarkG my intention on this site is not for people to think i'm a nice person.

Of course you could try and be a nice person by helping us out on MP discussions as well

Things were going great on the Civ2 Mp forum till you showed up

	04-10-2001 05:12									#89
	bribery? Put an end to popups!

how much to "buy" a new forum? is it plausible that the purchaser be named moderator of the forum?

	04-10-2001 05:15									#90
	Tired of ads?

Dear Mr. Rah,

thank you very much for your feedback on the policies of our service.

We appreciate all opinions on the right or wrong of these policies. Be sure that we are always on alert and that these policies are continously evaluated so that the quality of our service is improved, and therefore your pleasure of use is increased.

Your feedback has been forwarded to the Department of Rules & Policies. When there is change, you will be notified via our special announcements.

Thank you again for contacting us
Customer Service
Apolyton Inc.



Rah, i have been trying to explain you my position for the last two pages in this thread. If that doesnt make you feel special, i'm terribly sorry but i'm afraid i cant do anything else for you.