20-09-2001 01:47									#1
	Why can't we discuss the lack of multiplayer in Civ III in the Civ II MP Forum? Full PM-box? Change here!

It seems perfectly reasonable to me - the Civ 2 MP forum is where those most affected by this DISASTER hang out. Many of them only visit the civ II MP forum.

Its not like we're spamming or anything. We're discussing civ.

Also, I think we'd like to have some discussions WITHOUT all those annoying little single players present on the civ III forum.

Please cut us a bit of slack Markos - the Civ II multiplayer is a very strong community - we like to discuss civ stuff that affects us amongst ourselves. This is the biggest news for a looong time.

	20-09-2001 04:03									#2
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Mark... I have to agree with AH on this one (did I really just say that )

The CivII MP community is indeed a tight community when we aren't arguing about the rules to play by

The fact that there isn't going to be CivIII MP for awhile is probably THE BIGGEST issue at the moment. I see no reason why CivII MP'ers can't discuss this revolting development in the forum we use to discuss all issues pertaining to Civ MP.

While I realize that there is a Civ III forum... it is a far different community than the hardcore MP'ers who hang in the Civ II MP forum. Their concerns are FAR different than ours. While they are concerned about meaningless crap like what civs are going to be included, and how good the graphics are going to be, or whether there is going to be some stupid video... All we care about is continuing to play CIV with other people, not against some stupid AI that wouldn't know strategy even if it walked up and shook it's hand.

With rare exception (raz ), the spammers haven't taken over the Civ II MP forum like they have the Civ III forums. We are just a bunch of people who actually still PLAY civ mp and want to talk about it... And isn't that the idea behind the MP forum...

Cut us some slack Mark... I feel talking about this is more than appropriate, since WE are the ones that are most effected by this decision...

Thanks for reading my rants... I hope I have given you an Idea of how serious I am about this subject!

	20-09-2001 04:09									#3
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Yes, what is the rationale for denying us a Civ III-MP forum? Are you afraid it would be spammed? Just post a message saying that if anyone spams in that forum, they get a 5% PCR and a week ban- That would deter me

	20-09-2001 04:16									#4
	Thanks for your support Ming - hope it carries some weight Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I know how hard that was for you

Btw Markos, i didn't start a thread about this multiplayer thing on the civ II Mp after I saw you'd already closed about 4 threads there.

That alone shows the level of interest. It also shows what a good site citizen I am being on this one

One of the biggest problems with discussing this on the Civ III forum is that from what I have read a lot of single players fear that the game will be delayed if MP is added. This is a legitimate concern I guess but they spam any threads about it where civ 2 multiplayers want to voice their opinion, which tends to swamp the things we want talk about, which are more specific.

Like, what are we gonna do if its true

	20-09-2001 04:26									#5
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No problem AH... we MP'ers have to stick together, just as we have for the past years...

Mark...
While I don't agree with EVERYTHING AH is saying, he is correct (NO... Not again ) when he says that the SP'ers spam or disrupt the threads about MP.

Again, the MP forum is the home for those here at Apolyton who still play civ, and mostly ONLY in MP mode. This news is BIG, and many of us are trying to come to grips with it. I want to discuss it with the MP community, people I STILL play with, not a bunch of people who haven't played civ in months, and are more concerned about how Civ III will be in SP mode.

As AH said, it's not spam... and it is ON TOPIC... what's the problem

	20-09-2001 05:10									#6
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To be honest I cannot see why there isn't a separate forum for CIV 3 - MP. Maybe a strong interest in the forum will convince Firaxis to make sure MP is included and there certainly is a demand for such a forum.

Not sure about the politics of all this but maybe if AH stops pushing for it then it might happen!

	20-09-2001 07:18									#7
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They are all agreed on this!

As can be seen, non MP players see fit to comment on this issue if it's outside the civ-2 MP forum.

The Civ-3 forum includes a lot of whiney know-it-alls, who have been obbsessed with a game that hasn't even come out yet, where as the MP bunch just want to talk about what the MP (or lack there of) for it might take shape as, and when we might see it.

I know one guy advocated spamming Firaxis' mailbox, but why are the rest of us prevented from talking about it (outside of giving Ras an excuse to make another 1,000 pointless posts) ?

There is no place for it in Civ-3's forum, and we are prevented at the civ-2 MP forum?

Have you cut some deal with Firaxis to keep us quiet on the MP thing?

Smells of conspiracy.

Just a message, Mark, i might have to make this my latest cause, and you know how annoying I am!

	20-09-2001 07:36									#8
	It does remind me of MarkG's censorship of comment on CTP I and II Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

Lighten up Mark, Firaxis won't hate you if you stop stifling criticism (which in the end, you can't do anyway).

Of course the alternative is we deal with the nuisance posters on the civ III forum and make it our own

A couple are already begging for my full attention

Also, some of the more prolific posters on the civ III forum, like Techwins, have already admitted they've played no more than a few games of civ II. Gee, I'm really interested in his opinion

	20-09-2001 08:55									#9
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Each forum here has a specific topic

End of story


Some comments.
1) The civ2-mp community is not the only mp community here. There is also the ctp-mp and smac-mp communities.
2) There are 2 threads on MP in the civ3-general forum(that's just in the first page only), so there IS a place to talk about MP
3) if you notice someone spaming, report it to the moderators/administrators
4) if the civ2-mp community would like to discuss civ3-general forum, it should do so in the civ3-mp. i dont get it, are you afraid to meet new people or something?

	20-09-2001 09:31									#10
	Er Mark, where is the harm in discussing civ III MP in the Civ MP forum? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by SITS Not sure about the politics of all this but maybe if AH stops pushing for it then it might happen!

So true, so true.

I really don't see what the big problem is anyway. We never see anyone in the civ II MP forum except the "regulars", who are mostly well behaved, except for Raz.

The civ III forum is overrun with newbies, some with little knowledge of civ 2.

	20-09-2001 09:42									#11
	Re: Er Mark, where is the harm in discussing civ III MP in the Civ MP forum? Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse The civ III forum is overrun with newbies, some with little knowledge of civ 2.

in which case your presence will elevate the forum to new levels of civ-wisdom

	20-09-2001 10:01									#12
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quote: Smells of conspiracy.

Quite - but consider the implications!

Ming and AH conspiring against MarkG. :horror:

	20-09-2001 10:01									#13
	Oh well if you are just going to be a jerk about it Suffering from ads?

Micro manage to your heart's content.

I'll leave this to others to take forward now.

	20-09-2001 10:13									#14
	Re: Oh well if you are just going to be a jerk about it Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

quote: Originally posted by Alexander's Horse Micro manage to your heart's content.

You must be talking about CIV if its micromanaging.

	20-09-2001 12:40									#15
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Mark - Why not just create a new forum for CIV3 MP? A thread or ten dispersed in a large forum doesn't do the subject justice. We have two forums for CIV3 already yet the game isn't out including a forum on the civilisations and there is also a forum for MOO3 which isn't even out yet (I'm not complaining about those forums but just pointing out that they cater for a demand.)

There is huge interest in CIV3 MP and as other people said there is a large proportion of the 'Poly community who value the MP aspects of the various games. MP people I suspect are probably the most active memebers on your boards. To not provide a proper forum for them especially when you've provided a place for people to moan about the Welsh not being in the game seems a bit naff.

I new forum will allow the die-hard SP players to ignore it and provide a place of community to the people that take such an active part. You know it makes sense.

	20-09-2001 13:56									#16
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG Each forum here has a specific topic End of story

Hmmmm... let's see here... could you please explain how "general" = specific...

Fine... If that is your attitude, then just create the Civ III MP forum now so we can talk about it in the RIGHT FORUM! You are going to create one anyway... so why don't you give us a "specific" place to talk about it.

	20-09-2001 15:13									#17
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quote: Originally posted by SITS Mark - Why not just create a new forum for CIV3 MP?

because there isn't a NEED for one.
there would be a need if there were lots of threads about MP in the civ3-general.
q: how many issues are there about civ3-mp right now?
a: 1
q: what kind of info do we have about mp that would create discussion
a: none

big interest is not enough when there is nothing talk about

as for the forums you mentioned, we have the civ3-general because there is a lot of interest and a lot of info for civ3. we have the civ3-civilizations because there is also a lot of interest and we have new info coming about every week. and the same goes for moo3


please explain me what isgoing to be discussed in a civ3-mp forum, when we dont anything about it and when we dont even know if it's going to be in the initial release or not

	20-09-2001 15:19									#18
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Give it a try, Markos. It will have at least the level of activity of the MOO3 forum...

Aaargh, what am I advocating? I LIKE the contentious debates about MP in the Civ3 forum. Why don't you civ2MPers get out of your little clique and come over to make some noise? It will liven things up a little.

	20-09-2001 15:25									#19
	It's a community Increase Your PM Length

Marky Mark...one you don't really understand (obviously).....

The MP people, as Ming pointed out, don't want to talk about the bells and whistles of what civ 3 is going to offer, because frankly they don't matter to us that much. The interaction between real people is what interests us.

The same people that play civ 2 multiplayer are the same people that will play civ 3 multiplayer which will most likely come out some time in the next decade. The need for a civ3 mp forum will become in-evidable anyway, so why don't we just set up a stupid forum for us mp people so we can talk our shop without worry of having to deal with SP goons........

It will make a lot of people happy, including me.
You say there's no demand for it, but how many people constitute a need?

	20-09-2001 15:27									#20
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Things to discuss in CIV3 MP

Is there or isn't there going to be MP?
What form will it take?
What improvements do we want from CIV2/SMAC?
Putting pressure on Firaxis/Infogames to include it
Type of tournaments/rankings
Strategies for MP gleamed from the knowledge of SP
Opportunity to build up a community of CIV3 MP that will enhance 'Poly for years to come


In a proper CIV3 MP forum there will be much more opportunity to expand the subject of MP at the moment it gets lost in the SP chatter. MP will be the thing that keeps CIV3 going in the years to come - just as MP did for SMAC/X. And I also bet you that the CIV Civilisations forum won't last year but no-one can say that about CIV3 MP.

	20-09-2001 16:09									#21
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Go Markos!

	20-09-2001 16:17									#22
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quote: Originally posted by MarkG because there isn't a NEED for one. there would be a need if there were lots of threads about MP in the civ3-general.

Are you really saying that if we were to create a lot of different MP threads in the General forum that we would get a Civ III MP forum... In other words, you would reward us if we "semi spammed" (because most of the threads in Civ III right now are just repetitive or just plain spam as people look to increase their post count)

quote: q: how many issues are there about civ3-mp right now? a: 1

See Sit's posts... he seems to understand.

quote: q: what kind of info do we have about mp that would create discussion a: none

That didn't stop you from creating a CIV III forum when almost NOTHING WAS KNOWN ABOUT IT EXCEPT THEY WERE WORKING ON IT... which is IDENTICAL to the situation with MP.

quote: big interest is not enough when there is nothing talk about

Again... see Sit's post, and look at the reaction you got when you closed down threads in the Civ II MP forum

quote: please explain me what isgoing to be discussed in a civ3-mp forum, when we dont anything about it and when we dont even know if it's going to be in the initial release or not

Again... See Sit's post for starters...
How much of the original stuff in the Civ III forum was pure speculation and opinion or just pure spam? ALL OF IT!

Come on Mark... You have set up forums for games outside the "Civ Family" on less then this... THIS IS CIV WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT! Whether it will be included in the first release or not isn't the issue... IT WILL EVENTUALLY BE DELIVERED and that's the point!

If you aren't going to let the Civ II MP community discuss Civ III in their own forum, at least give us a Civ III forum so we do have a place to discuss it... FORCING US TO USE THE CIV III GENERAL FORUM is a joke... Maybe you would see more than ONE THREAD ON THE SUBJECT IF THERE WAS A PROPER PLACE TO DISCUSS IT.
Proven by the fact that there was more than one thread on the subject in the Civ II MP forum

	20-09-2001 16:32									#23
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What's up with this, Mark?

We are all saying there is a need, and a desire, and you say there isn't?!!?

What, are we on the "Pay no f*cking mind to" list or something?

You think I care what some punk who never played MP in Civ-2 thinks about Civ-3 MP?

That is just silly.

Would you prefer if we get all the MPers to post here about it?

Most of em don't venture to this part of the site, but if you don't believe us, will you listen to them?

I mean really, you have sections that are hardly ever used, all we want is to be able to talk MP in the MP forum for god sakes!

	20-09-2001 16:45									#24
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Markos, perhaps you should spend a little less time in moving threads around and a little more time in making a decent reply on Cybershy’s perfectly legitimate question, or do you really want him to beg on his knees?

	20-09-2001 16:53									#25
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I think we are all overreacting here... Granted, I did too.

MarkG has his legitimate reasons, and we have ours.
It's time to remove emotions and negative comments, and focus on the real issues, and not just get into a yelling match.

Mark... sorry I over reacted... If we can have an informed discussion on this matter, it will help all of us.

Thanks for listening to our rants...

	20-09-2001 17:25									#26
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Ming,
”MarkG has his legitimate reasons...”

I’ve tried to maintain the idea that Markos has a very good reason for everything he does or doesn't do for a very long time, but I have been giving up on that lately...

Sorry that I didn’t quite respond to your call to prevent this discussion from straying off. I sincerly hope it won't degenerate and this is my last post here.

	20-09-2001 17:30									#27
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Colon... your response about Mark isn't very fair.
Everybody has their own opinions, and the reasons for holding that opinion. Just because we don't agree, doesn't mean that people don't have legitimate points of view.

Mark has to look at it from an overall site perspective, while we are looking at it from a "very NARROW" point of view... who is to say who is right and who is wrong... Heck, we could both be right on this issue

	20-09-2001 18:24									#28
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Well Ming, that’s the crux of the issue, isn’t it?. I’m very willing to believe (in)actions are perfectly legitimate, but how often does he bother to communicate about it in a friendly, cooperative and straightforward manner, if at all?

Maybe I’m wrong, in fact, I really like to be wrong now, and I hope this is the last word between you and me in this thread.

	20-09-2001 19:43									#29
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quote: Originally posted by SITS Things to discuss in CIV3 MP Is there or isn't there going to be MP? What form will it take? What improvements do we want from CIV2/SMAC? Putting pressure on Firaxis/Infogames to include it Type of tournaments/rankings Strategies for MP gleamed from the knowledge of SP Opportunity to build up a community of CIV3 MP that will enhance 'Poly for years to come

plus set-up of games (diplo gamers are already planning ahead)

	21-09-2001 01:13									#30
	If Mark would stop locking threads on the Civ 2 Mp forum Suffering from ads?

There wouldn't be this problem. We just want to discuss it amongst ourselves. End of story. Its not a big deal.