20-09-2001 17:52									#1
	Modern era special units Enter the AD-FREE zone

I was woundering: are modern era's special units stop getting their bonuses and being possible to produced sometime sicne there is no era after modern?

Don't say that the Panzer or F16 aren't obsolete forever... the Rafale is alot better than the F16 now. F16 got their time. Will it be so that they will stop having their bonuses when all technologies will have been discovered? Then, what stops someone from not discovering the last technology and keeping his special unit?

	20-09-2001 18:33									#2
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What I would like to know what are the ultimate units in the game of each branche? Will that for example be the stealth bomber for bombers? The M1 for tanks and ground warfare?µ
So little is known up to now about the modern age of the game...

	20-09-2001 18:36									#3
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The F-16 is the better fighter. For 2 reasons

1) It is armed with the best AAM's. Can hit enemy warplanes from 50 miles away. Before most MiGs and Mirages can even see it on radar.

2) It is extremely cheap to build compared to the Rafale.

	20-09-2001 18:46									#4
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I don't want to offend your knowledge of aircraft m8, but "beyond visual range missiles" are developed for all new fighters and with ever better characteristics.
I agree the F-16 is a good and cheap multi-role fighter but if cost is not an issue it can't compete against 4th generation fighters.

	20-09-2001 18:55									#5
	Re: Modern era special units Suffering from ads?

quote: Originally posted by Trifna I was woundering: are modern era's special units stop getting their bonuses and being possible to produced sometime sicne there is no era after modern? Don't say that the Panzer or F16 aren't obsolete forever... the Rafale is alot better than the F16 now. F16 got their time. Will it be so that they will stop having their bonuses when all technologies will have been discovered? Then, what stops someone from not discovering the last technology and keeping his special unit?

My hunch (and hope) is that every civilization's special units will, by the end of the game, have been made obsolete. It would be unbalanced to have otherwise. I think it would be more in line with what will really happen--that eventually all nations will be dragged up by the scruff of their necks into the modern era with modern technology.

Then again, I could be quite wrong. One aspect of balance may be allowing civs with the late special units to have that balance against the ones who got theirs right away. After all, it would kinda suck to get the F 15 and have it become obsolete 10 years later. But I bet the Firaxis people are working it so that all specila units, no matter what era, are useful for about the same number of turns for each civ.

Cheers.

	20-09-2001 19:06									#6
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Certain units that should never go obselete


Conscript- Basic defense force
Modern Tank
Modern Jet
Modern Bomber
Marine
Mech Inf
All steel Ships (cept Ironclad, is there on?)
Howitzer

Did I miss anything

	20-09-2001 19:07									#7
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Wouldn't the stealth fighter replace the F-16 in the game?

	20-09-2001 20:48									#8
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Isn't it the F-15 anyway?

Which is quite a difference from the F-16.

Gary

	20-09-2001 20:49									#9
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Faded glory,

Wouldn't it then be a "steelclad"?

Gary

	20-09-2001 21:27									#10
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It would be such a major letdown if one civilization got to have thier special unit forever, that would totaly unbalance the game,
since most people starts conquering the world when all the techs have been researched (if they dont care about score (i dont )).

If you get to have the f-15 (yep its a f-15) foreverer as americans that nation would be the only one you ever need to play and thats plain boring (imagine everyone wanting to be americans in multiplayer...)

But i think the people at firaxis are so smart that they realize this and that they will make some other unit replace the f-15 (stealth fighter perhaps?)

I also hope that they will make fighters less efficcient at attacking ground units. In civ 2 a veteran stealth fighter on a suicide mission could kill 4-5 armors easily.
I loved to pillage the railway for 2 squares and then watch the enemy pile up all his forces and then take out em all with my fighters =)

	21-09-2001 03:10									#11
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i dont know where i got this idea from, but wasnt it an f-22???

	21-09-2001 03:51									#12
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we all know its going to be an Auroa Spy Plane

	21-09-2001 04:09									#13
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aight let me break it down for yall....

You don't work for Lockheed-Martin.

You aren't a pilot.

You aren't an expert in Modern Aerial Combat.

Modern Aerial Combat rarely is about dog-fighting. Because a jet has a faster thrust to weight ratio, doesn't make it the better fighter. And economics DO play an important part in how good a fighter is. Ask any member of the Air Force, and they will tell you the F-14 Tomcat is the king of the skies.

In conjuction with the AWAC, its range for attacking air targets exceeds 250 miles. And all fighters cannot be equipped with the targeting systems and weapons systems that the F-14 has.

I strongly dislike the fact that there aren't civ specific units for every type of unit. If the Romans had lasted and gotten to the Jet Age, you can be sure their Jets would be vastly different from the English jet fighters. But my idea of civ specific units for all types is obviously too high-level-thinking involed for Firaxis. I just have to make my own.

	21-09-2001 05:02									#14
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Dogfighting is obsolete. Its good to know and have, but so is a sidearm pistol.

41 Iraqi MiG's and Mirage F-1's were shot down in desert storm. All the Iraqi pilots were shot down before they even saw the F-16's and F-14's they were up against. From 100 miles out usaully...

The same story in Serbia...and Libya.

Dogfighting is somthing of the past. But its good to have anyway. Russian MiGs make that mistake. They base there whole system around the premise that it will get into a dogfight. This is almost never the case

	21-09-2001 05:33									#15
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory The F-16 is the better fighter. For 2 reasons 1) It is armed with the best AAM's. Can hit enemy warplanes from 50 miles away. Before most MiGs and Mirages can even see it on radar.

How can you say that the F-16 has the best AAM's? Where do you get your info from? Perhaps you meant 'better AAM's', in which case you still might be wrong but I don't know.

What I do know is that SoulAssassin is correct about the F-14. I believe the missiles that allow for such a huge range of attack are called Phoenix missiles, which cost half a million dollars each.

	21-09-2001 06:42									#16
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SoulAssassin,

While you're right, you don't have to be so arrogant. While I agree that the F-14, armed with AIM-54 Phoenix missiles (you got it, Dexter ), is probably the best air superiority fighter we have, I'm surprised that you'd find Lockeed-Martin employees or Air Force people saying so, since it's made by Grumman and flown by the Navy.

And regarding dogfighting, we've all seen Top Gun, and know about the F-4's 20mm cannon. They were saying that dogfighting is dead then. We fought against Iraq, but who knows what would happen if we fought against a modern enemy with top ECM technology? Not that I know anything about secret anti-missile technology, but history is replete with examples of people claiming something is finished when it isn't.

Gary Guanine

	21-09-2001 06:42									#17
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Double post

	21-09-2001 07:10									#18
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quote: Originally posted by faded glory Dogfighting is obsolete. Its good to know and have, but so is a sidearm pistol. 41 Iraqi MiG's and Mirage F-1's were shot down in desert storm. All the Iraqi pilots were shot down before they even saw the F-16's and F-14's they were up against. From 100 miles out usaully... The same story in Serbia...and Libya. Dogfighting is somthing of the past. But its good to have anyway. Russian MiGs make that mistake. They base there whole system around the premise that it will get into a dogfight. This is almost never the case

Dogfighting is not obsolete. Each and every Mig shot down in Iraq was in a dogfight.
Yes they used missile, however they had to see the Mig before they could shoot.
The F-15 shot down most of the Iraq planes. The F-15/16 carried the AIM 7M Sparrow with a max range of 62 miles, and the AIM 9L Sidwinder with a max range of 11 miles.
The Sparrow is radar guided missile and therefore the F-15/16s had to see the Mig before they could shoot. That means keep the radar lock on the Mig so the Missile would hit the target.
If I would take the time, I could tell how many F-14s shot down a Mig in the Gulf War. I know this, it was very, very few. (Note: I just look at World Airpower Journal Vol 6 Summer 1991. The F-18 scored the only US Navy kill against fixed-wing opposition. They shot down 2 Shenyang F-7 (Mig-21).)
The F-14 carry both the AIM-7 and AIM-9, and yes it carryed the AIM-54 Phoenix, however it normaly only carried 2 Phoenix, 4 Sparrow, and 2 Sidwinder. If they carried all 6 Phoenix then the plane was to heavy to carried any other missile.
The F-14 had the AWG-9 Radar, range 100+ mi.
The F-15 had the APG-63 Radar, range 100+ mi.
The F-16 had the APG-66 Radar, range 40 mi.
The F-18 had the APG-65 Radar, range 100+ mi.
Our planes now have the AIM-130 missile. A much better missile plus they can now fire and forget. The missile has it own radar so it can guide itself to the target.

	21-09-2001 08:01									#19
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quote: Ask any member of the Air Force, and they will tell you the F-14 Tomcat is the king of the skies.

So, any member of the US Air Force will admit that the fighter jet used by their Navy counterparts is the best in the air? I am forced to disagree. The differences between the Navy's F-14 Tomcat and the Air Forces's F-15 Eagle might not be major ones, but you won't find a member of one branch saying the warplane of the other branch is superior. Our forces work together well when it counts, but when the poop is far from the fan they sport a lively rivalry between branches of the milirary. No doubt the Marines claim their British-made jets to be the best. And the Army will claim their Apache helicopters are more lethal and useful to the armed forces. Sigh. For my money, nothing beats the A-10 Warthog! Tank killer extraordinaire!

At any rate, the F-14 is a Navy plane. The Air Force boasts of the F-15.

	21-09-2001 08:30									#20
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You are a very wise man, Civcop.

Gary

	21-09-2001 12:57									#21
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isnt it amazing what a wide range of knowledge we have here? impis, iroquis, artillery, tanks, jetfighters, "rise and fall of civs," some people just know them all like the back of their hand. just goes to show that civilization isnt just 'another game.' its much more than that

by the way, the f-22s being tested now are next generation fighters that will replace all fighters mentioned here

	21-09-2001 16:11									#22
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quote: Originally posted by jdd2007 by the way, the f-22s being tested now are next generation fighters that will replace all fighters mentioned here

Not necessary. The cost of modern fighters is so high that Air Force usually consider to use the last&best as its "diamond", for hardest missions, while the older model are for more common duty.

F16 Fighting Falcon (Viper) shifted its main role in USA from light fighter/best dogfighter around to fighter bomber (others countries use it as multyrole)
He works quite happily with the F15 Eagle, who will keep a role after F22 Raptor become operative, because the F22 will be too expensive and in small numbers to cover sky everywhere.

Look also at USA bombers situation: they use B2 as top stealth bomber, but have all the B1-B and still many B52!

	21-09-2001 18:37									#23
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Actually, I'm inclined to think that The Swedish Gripen is the Best European fighter out there right now....it certainly kicks Rafale buttocks...

I was also glad to see the Hungary is leasing 16 Gripens over F-16's, as good as the F-16 is, it is very, very, old. The F/A-18E Super Hornet and F-22 are both superior.

	21-09-2001 19:28									#24
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quote: Originally posted by SoulAssassin If the Romans had lasted and gotten to the Jet Age, you can be sure their Jets would be vastly different from the English jet fighters. But my idea of civ specific units for all types is obviously too high-level-thinking involed for Firaxis. I just have to make my own.

Arrggh. I think this would be a terrible idea. Speculative and above all, surrealistic.
Civs in the game are all "created" at the same time, so you'll be finding Americans in 2000 B.C. and Romans in 2000 A.D..
By your premise you'd get a Zulu warrior, a different Egyptian warrior, a different American warrior, a different Chinese warrior, a different Babylonian warrior, a different English warrior, a different German warrior, a different French warrior, a different Aztec warrior, a different Persian warrior, a different Japanese warrior, a different Roman warrior, a different Russian warrior, a different Greek warrior, a different Indian warrior, a different Iroquois warrior... How about a specific Iroquois jet ? There would be some serious imagination involved. Repeat for phalanx. Repeat for legion. Repeat for knight. Repeat for cannon. Repeat for tank. Repeat for frigate. Repeat for jet. Repeat for bomber. Repeat for destroyer. And so on, and so on. Find names for all of them. Find graphics for all of them.
At this time, we know of just a bunch of units and already we're arguing over names like Rider, their attributes, graphics, historical realism, etc., having this over hundreds of units (most of which, mass invented) would be nothing short of ridiculous.

	21-09-2001 20:10									#25
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quote: Originally posted by civcop For my money, nothing beats the A-10 Warthog! Tank killer extraordinaire!

Yeah the A-10 was well worth the money and still would be a viable platform if the airforce "Fighter Mafia" didnt want to get rid of it.

	21-09-2001 20:34									#26
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quote: Originally posted by SoulAssassin Modern Aerial Combat rarely is about dog-fighting. Because a jet has a faster thrust to weight ratio, doesn't make it the better fighter. And economics DO play an important part in how good a fighter is. Ask any member of the Air Force, and they will tell you the F-14 Tomcat is the king of the skies. In conjuction with the AWAC, its range for attacking air targets exceeds 250 miles. And all fighters cannot be equipped with the targeting systems and weapons systems that the F-14 has.

Sorry but the AIM-54 Phoenix was made for killing bombers at long range for fleet defence. They are large missles and fighters which can pull higher G's have a much better chance of avoiding them unlike other missles because the missle cannot turn as well as other missles because of its size and speed.

The Tomcat is king in its element, Fleet Defense, but there are better pure air superiority fighters. Maybe if the navy would have gone through with the planned upgrades instead of pushing the super Hornet it would be. Also the Super Hornet can take more weapon systems, it just cant take the Phoenix while it does take anti-ship missles and a number of ground attack weapons the Tomcat doesnt.

Also I would guess that now that you have declared dogfighting dead the Topgun and Redflag schools will be closing up shop soon since dogfighting doesnt matter

	21-09-2001 20:44									#27
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quote: Originally posted by DonJoel If you get to have the f-15 (yep its a f-15) foreverer as americans that nation would be the only one you ever need to play and thats plain boring (imagine everyone wanting to be americans in multiplayer...) But i think the people at firaxis are so smart that they realize this and that they will make some other unit replace the f-15 (stealth fighter perhaps?)

I think they'll let them have that edge forever in the game. Why? Look at the edge the other special units have over units of the same type. Its very small in most cases or they have the same stats and just doesnt need a resource the other needs.

If your facing someone with a special unit that has better stats I would use "Quanity has a quality all its own" as my watchword.

	22-09-2001 03:32									#28
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quote: Originally posted by Shiva The Tomcat is king in its element, Fleet Defense, but there are better pure air superiority fighters. Maybe if the navy would have gone through with the planned upgrades instead of pushing the super Hornet it would be. Also the Super Hornet can take more weapon systems, it just cant take the Phoenix while it does take anti-ship missles and a number of ground attack weapons the Tomcat doesnt.

The Navy did want the Upgrade but DOD review board said NO, and as we all know in this country the Cilvilian rules.

quote: Also I would guess that now that you have declared dogfighting dead the Topgun and Redflag schools will be closing up shop soon since dogfighting doesnt matter

Not in my life time. I,m a member of the Air Force Ass. and my last issue had the score card on Red Flag.

	22-09-2001 12:04									#29
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quote: I think they'll let them have that edge forever in the game. Why? Look at the edge the other special units have over units of the same type. Its very small in most cases or they have the same stats and just doesnt need a resource the other needs.

No, i dont think they will be so stupid that they would imbalance the game on purpose.

	22-09-2001 12:22									#30
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Sorry to Pi$$ on your chips but, what if the American CSU only has extra movement over the other jets!. Then it would be just as good as the others and would not need to become obsolete