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Freddz
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I wouldn't say the unit is worthless, just that it is bit boring. And it will quickly become worthless.
Of course, as a cheap scouting unit in the start it might actually be priceless. Were there any "ruins" in the game? In that case the unit becomes even better.
Last edited by Freddz on 22-09-2001 at 12:34
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Eli
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Israel
Jul 2000
time: 07:15
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Hmmm... If the Aztects were expansionists then it could be reasonable for early exploring, but as it is now the unit is quite useless for the Aztecs.
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jsw363
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quote:
Originally posted by Dan on CivFanatics
Actually, the Jaguar is a really useful unit, and the Aztecs are almost always still around in games I play, well into the middle ages. Movement actually impacts combat in Civ III, so the movement bonus is more useful than you would think. And, while you're busy scrounging food to generate another pop point so you can build a worker, the Aztecs are Golden Aging and cranking out more and more Jags. They can actually be a very formidable civ, but then again, no one ever gives the Aztecs any respect anyway... |
quote:
Originally posted by Dan on CivFanatics
quote:
Originally posted by Thunderfall
I still think the Jaguar Warrior is pretty useless. In Civ2 I don't even dare to use a warrior to attack other warrior. There is no way a warrior can defeat another warrior fortified in the city. |
Not true. I've seen Jaguar Warriors take out a fortified spearman in a city. Granted, it took more than one JW to do it...but the movement bonus keeps them from dying as quickly, which means faster combat promotion...
quote:
The AI controled Aztecs probably can't win any battles with their Jaguar Warriors and they will be forced to build Wonders to trigger a Golden Age.
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In my experience, this is also incorrect. |
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d_dudy
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i guess they know what they're doing, but it just seems week to me
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PGM
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Lisboa, Portugal
Aug 2001
time: 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by BeBro
Yes. At the first sign of attack, he can run away very fast  |
I would advise against criticizing something we've never seen nor yet understand. It seems to me that movement has now new strategic concepts, rather than simple motion. A unit's movement factor might be more important than what we're expecting right now.
If the JW is cheap, it may be useful. Considering ONLY what we do know so far (movement), the JW is the 1st unit, has a superior-to-date movement of 2, can act as a scout capturing huts, enemy settlers and workers and can trigger a very early GA (let's not forget this is all way early B.C.), which in my opinion makes the Aztecs a serious threat in the early game. And yes, early GAs may be somewhat inefficient, but if you don't survive the enemy early GA, waiting for your own will prove to have done you no good at all.
Quick-start civs may not win most games, but I'm sure they'll pick most civ losers in a game.
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Phutnote
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I'm not sure how useful this retreat from combat thing is. If I remember correctly, units that are damaged have their movement rate reduced. So if a unit is losing in combat and retreats, at what point does it call off the attack? If it's weakened enough to have its movement rate reduced, it's a bit of a sitting duck then, isn't it?
And if it stops attacking before it's movement rate is reduced, it doesn't give it much of an attack before giving up, does it?
As for Firaxis ripping off AoE with the Jaguar unit, I think that's absolute nonsense. You might as well claim they ripped of AoK because there are knights in the game.
On the other hand, he does have a point. There are things they have taken from RTS: resources for units (like wood and gold for archers in AoE, now Civ requires iron, say, to build legions).
I don't think Firaxis would have introduced the concept of resources being required for units, considering Sid's Keep It Simple, Stupid, mantra unless it had already become a familiar concept for gamers.
Scouts have strength of 0.1(? or is it 0?).2, so they cannot attack at all. I'm not sure if they can be captured. Like the warrior, scouts are a default technology unit that everyone gets. Expansionists get one already built.
Fast warriors for the aztecs would mean fast expansion at the start, as they are cheap and cost no resources. I think the Egyptians have to wait till they discover the wheel before they get their special unit. and they have to find horses. If they start in North America (random start locations on an Earth map), man are they screwed!
Phutnote
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The diplomat
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Terre Haute, IN USA
Sep 1999
time: 23:15
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Over at CivFanatics, Dan Magaha FIRAXIS had this to say about the Aztce UU:
quote:
Not true. I've seen Jaguar Warriors take out a fortified spearman in a city. Granted, it took more than one JW to do it...but the movement bonus keeps them from dying as quickly, which means faster combat promotion... |
and also,
quote:
Actually, the Jaguar is a really useful unit, and the Aztecs are almost always still around in games I play, well into the middle ages. Movement actually impacts combat in Civ III, so the movement bonus is more useful than you would think. And, while you're busy scrounging food to generate another pop point so you can build a worker, the Aztecs are Golden Aging and cranking out more and more Jags. They can actually be a very formidable civ, but then again, no one ever gives the Aztecs any respect anyway... |
So, it is seems like we are severely underestimating the Aztecs. They are not as week as we assume. Take special note to the part from Dan about how the Aztecs can GA and build tons of Jags while another civ is struggling to build setlers. It seems like Dan is hinting at one possible Aztec strategy: use your GA to build tons of Jag warriors to swarm the enemy.
A single Jag warrior might appear weak, but a swarm of them can probably do some serious damage in the early part of the game against the chariots, archers and spearman of the other civs. Think rover rush in SMAC. OUCH!
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Adm.Naismith
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Milano - Italy
Oct 1999
time: 06:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Big Crunch
We are talking Aztec UU not Italian?
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Come on, we aren't the most rewarded soldiers in the world, but if you double check a serius history book you will know better who to insult, do you? 
But you probably approve the spirit of Japan Kamikaze, right?
Next time what, a big applause to suicide terrorist pilots on last flights attack to Washington and New York? 
We builded a social approval for heroism over realism: when Italian (and French, and many others troops in history) had almost decent equipment and good officers they fighted at good level. Top team often prove well during NATO exercise, not to mention recent peacekeeping operations.
Back to Aztec Jaguar, they really seems weak: a decent scout, but nothing more.
They seems really bad on Earth map, IMHO. They must travel so long before to meet Americans, they will probably find them well fortified or with stronger defender... 
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Stromprophet
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quote:
Originally posted by Urban Ranger
1-1-2? That's hard to use it to kill somebody from another civ to start the Golden Age... |
Veterans. Besides, only one has to win. Say you have two warriors and run into a single warrior. It will be easy enough.
Besides, some civs like America would have to find another way to start their golden age.
And besides, this unit will be available right away, and cheap. Single row again I suppose. So you will definitely have an exploration advantage.
Early elimination advantage of other civs.
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22-09-2001 11:36
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