06-10-2001 00:19									#31
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Hi Fiera,
I got your maps, thanks! However, I have bad news: I can only use the first one. Reason? As I state on the website main page, I'm only looking for certain kinds of maps. The one kind of map I don't really want are those that just show political borders, because there are so many of these everywhere.

What I need: maps that show vegetation cover, roads or railroads, city size, trade routes, trade goods, population densities, religious affliation, ethnic distributions, cultural factors, and so on.

In other words, just about everything but the movement of political borders, but 90+% of all maps are about political borders, so finding these kinds of maps can be pretty hard. These non-political border type maps are the ones that will help future Civ3 scenario makers the most, in my opinion.

	06-10-2001 01:25									#32
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan Hi Fiera, I got your maps, thanks! However, I have bad news: I can only use the first one. Reason? As I state on the website main page, I'm only looking for certain kinds of maps. The one kind of map I don't really want are those that just show political borders, because there are so many of these everywhere. What I need: maps that show vegetation cover, roads or railroads, city size, trade routes, trade goods, population densities, religious affliation, ethnic distributions, cultural factors, and so on.

No problem.

As a matter of a fact, I think that broadens my list! I also have the following maps:

1. Natural routes of the Iberian Peninsula.
2. Paleolithic findings in the Peninsula (not really up-to-date, made in 1973).
3. Mesolithic and Neolithic findings (same as above).
4. The "Bell-shaped Vase" culture (does that actually make any sense?).
5. Bronze Age in the Peninsula.
6. Celtic invasions and Punic and Greek colonization.
7. Iberian and Celtic Peoples.
8. Carthaginians in Spain and the Second Punic War.
9. The Roman Conquest (more political borders-like, but still).
10. Christian expansion in Iberia.
11. Germanic invasions.
12. The Reconquista: geopolitics and chronology.
13. Almoravids and Almohades (showing Northern Africa as well and both tribes' expansion).
14. Iberia's cultural influence in the Middle Ages (showing Western Europe and Northern Africa).
15. Madieval art in the Peninsula.
16. Medieval trade (showing Western Europe).
17. Catalan trade in the Mediterranean.
18. Iberia's international relationships (?) along the 14th and 15th centuries (showing Western Europe).
19. Anjou and Aragón in the Mediterranean.
20. The Almogavers (showing the Eastern Mediterranean).
21. Trastamara's policies in the Mediterranean.
22. Columbus' Voyages.
23. Evolution of the discoveries in America.
24. The discoveries in North America and Mesoamerica.
25. The discoveries in South America.
26. Spansh and Portuguese explorations in the Pacific Ocean.
27. Spanish and Portuguese in Eastern Asia.
28. North America colonization (16th-18th centuries).
29. South America colonization (16th-17th centuries).

Please tell me which ones of these are you interested in so I can send them to you.

	06-10-2001 01:41									#33
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You could send some of those to Miss

Could you post here (zipped if otherwise not possible) the one about Columbus' Voyages?

	06-10-2001 01:44									#34
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It's going to be difficult to post that one here, and yet keep a fair image quality... I will try.

PS: Miss no sabría qué hacer con esto, en su vida ha visto un mapa de España...

	06-10-2001 03:55									#35
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Fiera,
Its hard for me to say which of those maps would work for me and which ones wouldn't. Political maps often contain road info or other info listed above, so going by title isn't good enough. You should be able to tell better than I, by looking at the list above.

That said, 10, 16 and 17 are almost certainly going to be good, and some of the others look very promising. Plus, I'd like 6,7 and 8 just cos I'm especially interested in that era (and the Visigothic era)!

BTW, exploration maps aren't really my thing, cos I don't see how those greatly help scenario makers make a better scenario setup.

	06-10-2001 08:17									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan That said, 10, 16 and 17 are almost certainly going to be good, and some of the others look very promising. Plus, I'd like 6,7 and 8 just cos I'm especially interested in that era (and the Visigothic era)!

Well, I'll send you these as soon as I have them scanned (tomorrow, 'cause now is way too late here ), and probably some more as a "bonus".

Also, I also have some world history atlas that have plenty of this kind of non-political maps. Let me see what you already have on your website, I think I can send you interesting new stuff.

	09-10-2001 15:24									#37
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Fiera,
Still looking forward to get those great maps. Let me know.

	09-10-2001 19:06									#38
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Harlan

are you working on something about Spain??

	09-10-2001 19:53									#39
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Harlan, a new zip file awaits in your inbox!

Shaka, Harlan is putting together maps that can help future Civ3 scenario creators.

	10-10-2001 00:11									#40
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Mostly I'm just collecting maps for the website.

However, I asked Fiera specifically for some early maps of Iberia, cos I'm collecting info for a potential future scenario. The scenario would be basically about the struggle between Carthage and Rome in the West Med. But it would start in 500 BC and have a developmental phase before the Punic Wars are likely to get hot and heavy some centuries later.

Not a high priority - I have another idea or two I want to do first. But I mention this cos I'm always collecting info, and I'm wondering if anyone here at this forum knows which cities existed in Iberia around 500 BC or shortly thereafter, or could point to some resources? Its pretty easy to learn about the Greek and Phoenician settlements, but finding out about the Tartessian, Celtic, Iberian and Celto-iberian civs is a much harder matter.

	10-10-2001 00:25									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Harlan Its pretty easy to learn about the Greek and Phoenician settlements, but finding out about the Tartessian, Celtic, Iberian and Celto-iberian civs is a much harder matter.

As I told you, unfortunately I do not have a scanner myself (yet). I know you were retired from Civ2 at the time I released it , take a look at my Celts and Iberians scenario. Practically all you need in that regard is there . I have much info on that topic. Ask whatever else you may need on that.

	10-10-2001 00:32									#42
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Harlan, that's great, 'cause I happen to be quite interested about the subject, as Jay Bee will tell you.

As a matter of a fact, we even toyed with the idea of making a Tartessos scn, dealing with the Carthaginian and Greek struggle for Iberian/Tartessian trade.

Just in case you're interested what were our main ideas, here's the thread with the discussion about it:

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...light=Tartessos

As for a more "abstract" discussion, and very interesting BTW, this one will help you as a quick reference on the whole Tartessos historical problem (if you read it, you'll find out that many people, as Jay Bee, don't believe in her supposed greatness, or even in her existence):

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthre...light=Tartessos

As for which were the main cities in Iberia around 500 b.C., I can give you a list, and in fact I happen to have some relevant maps available.

Just give me some time to to put together my references and scan the maps, and I'll be very glad to help you on this project.

	10-10-2001 00:47									#43
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...and don't forget to take a look at the scenario!

	10-10-2001 00:50									#44
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Yes, but "Of Celts and Iberians" started in 216 bC, didn't it?

	10-10-2001 01:30									#45
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Yeah, but the initial start date planned was 600 BC Then I changed it cos I thought this would imply too many turns w/o action. Ergo, most of the cities in the scenario were already old in 216 BC

	10-10-2001 12:59									#46
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Jesus,
I of course already have your scenario. I was put off from using it as a resource though, first cos of the starting date. Second, the problem goes from having not enough towns in 500 BC to having too many! Lets face it: except for the area around Tartessos and along some coasts, most of Iberia didn't have towns. Celtic oppidiums and other hill forts, yes, towns, not many.

I don't know how much you know about Civ3, but one nice feature of it that I hope to use is that you can have "camps" for the barbarians, instead of actual towns. The barbarian hordes that otherwise pop up out of nowhere in Civ2 pop out of these in Civ3, and if you destroy them, you can push back the barbarian menace. So I hope to use that in my scenario, and thus I can (hopefully) draw a distinction between towns and things like hill forts.

So, out of the dozens of Iberian towns in your scenario, which were honest to God towns in 500 BC?

	10-10-2001 13:24									#47
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Oh well, that's a cogent point. Yes you're absolutely right, towns-towns not many. In 500 BC I'd say, Emporion, Gades, perhaps Malaka, Sexi and Abdera (though I'm not sure if these three would qualify as real towns at that time as well), and... I can't think of more. There is a lot of talk around Tartessos and also around other Greek settlements along the Mediterranean but as Fiera said, there is more of legend to them than real facts. I'll try to find a ±accurate list of towns-towns for you. Hold the line

	10-10-2001 13:43									#48
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Now you're probably swinging too far in the other direction for what I'm looking for. My golden mean would be somewhere between the two. I think perhaps one way to look at it would be, which were the very largest native settlements in 500 BC? Those I'd probably count as towns even though they may just be big hill forts. Especially, and this is key, if we have good knowledge of them in 500 BC AND they showed lots of growth in the next several centuries.

On the other hand, there were oppidiums and the like that were essentially the same size in 200 BC as in 500 BC, and I wouldn't want to count those.

	10-10-2001 13:51									#49
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OK, I got it now. Capitals of the better known Iberian tribes would suit you as well?

	10-10-2001 13:58									#50
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If they fit the other criteria (showed signs of growth). As a modern analogy, compare Brazilia (a non-starter capitol) with Lima.

By the way, I just sent you an email - I want to sent you a map - but it got bounced back. I tried sending it to the spanish@apolyton.net account. Something else I can try?

	10-10-2001 14:03									#51
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There is a lot of problems with the Apolyton addresses lately. Try jbalsinde@ucsd.edu directly or jbalsinde@hotmail.com

	16-12-2001 03:52									#52
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A nice map:

http://agonzalez.web.wesleyan.edu/span223/maps/PG84.JPG

	16-12-2001 23:32									#53
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