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Fiera
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Proud Member of the Spanish Gang
Mar 2000
time: 06:14
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I re-read some chapters yesterday, and I must say I agree with Schulten because he brings up several mentions to Tartessos/Tarschisch in ancient texts...
I think those are the most decisive proofs. History is made of texts written by people before us.
I think they prove at least that Tarsis/Tartessos is not the same than Tarso in Cilicia/Southern coast of today's Turkey.
Schulten brings up another Carthaginian inscription, Hannibal's inscription in Lokroi, which makes reference to the Tartessian mercenaries.
Furthermore, Schulten talk about some Old Testimony mentions to a city called "Tarsis", which most scholars have translated for Tarso, in Cilicia, or today's Turkey. It may be, but as Schulten points out, all these mentions used Tarsis as a symbol of "something very rioch, as well as "something very far" from Israel, which obviosuly, would exclude the Cilician city...
Well, how about discussing this for starters? 
[I did it again, sigh...  ]
[This message has been edited by Jay Bee (edited March 02, 2001).]
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Jay Bee
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Valladolid, CA
Jan 1970
time: 06:14
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quote:
I re-read some chapters yesterday, and I must say I agree with Schulten because he brings up several mentions to Tartessos/Tarschisch in ancient texts...
I think those are the most decisive proofs.
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Ancient texts are made of stories, legends and myths. They may provide us with indications, hints, but let alone, prove nothing.
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History is made of texts written by people before us.
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Following the same logic, we should all agree that Earth was created in 6 days, that there was a Flood that lasted 40 days and 40 nights, etc, etc.
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I think they prove at least that Tarsis/Tartessos is not the same than Tarso in Cilicia/Southern coast of today's Turkey.
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see below.
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Schulten brings up another Carthaginian inscription, Hannibal's inscription in Lokroi, which makes reference to the Tartessian mercenaries.
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Schulten also claimed that Tartessos was destroyed by the Carthaginians. What kind of proof did he have to support his claim? A very mysterious one cos to this date still nobody knows. Maybe it's important to note here that the river Baetis was also known as river Tartessos. Hence the Iberians living near the river might have been called Tartessians. That is just a hipothesis, not a fact.
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Furthermore, Schulten talk about some Old Testimony mentions to a city called "Tarsis", which most scholars have translated for Tarso, in Cilicia, or today's Turkey. It may be, but as Schulten points out, all these mentions used Tarsis as a symbol of "something very rioch, as well as "something very far" from Israel, which obviosuly, would exclude the Cilician city...
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The idea that Tartessos and biblical Tarshish were the same city is very attractive. But again, there is no proof whatsoever. As you pointed out above, most scholars agree that biblical Tarshish was most likely in Turkey, not in Spain. Ask Masis about that . There is of course much room for speculation
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Well, how about discussing this for starters?
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Solid proof is what we need! Facts, not hypotheses!
I can't open Waku's links. My browser refuses to open them.
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Chris 62
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But I'm feeling MUCH better now
Jan 2001
time: 00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Jay Bee on 03-02-2001 09:03 PM
Yes, he does. Troya is, obviously, Spanish for Troy. You haven't participated yet, cpoulos. I think we all are eagerly awaiting for your opininon 
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Well, my confusion was based on Waku's response. Heinrich Schliemann found Troy, not Adolf Schulten. That said, let us move foward. The search for the city that Plato describes has been found. It is Thera, in the Aegean sea. Plato misinterpreted the writings of Solon. The eclipse of Atlantis had occured 900 years before Solon, not 9,000. Atlantis was not 800,000 square miles, but 80,000. There is another tranlation mistake by Plato: The greek word for "greater than" is very similar to the word for "midway". So Atlantis was midway between Libya and Asia, not greater than Libya and Asia. And were the pillars of Hercules really the strit of Gibraltar? Two promontories on the coast ot Greece, near Crete, are also called Pillars of Hercules. Thera erupted in about 1500 BC, wiping out the Minoan civilization(Who were the Atlantians), and the survivors may have been the Sea People, invaders who tried to conquor Eygpt and the Levant. Thera is the modern island of Santorini, and it's ruins are still 9/10ths covered. That was what Schulten was searching for. I don't know the theory of Tartessos. Could you guys tell me a little about it?
------------------
All knowledge begins with the phrase: I don't know.
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Jay Bee
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Valladolid, CA
Jan 1970
time: 06:14
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Fiera,
For good or bad, I think we are entering the philosophical realm. For something to be deemed true, it has to be supported by facts. It's that simple. No facts, no truth. What is left is speculation, hypotheses, belief, faith. You cannot write History based only on speculations, hypotheses, beliefs and faith. I hope you agree with this. Schulten's theories about Tartessos remain unsupported, thus we cannot built History with them. We will build working hipotheses, or legends, sagas, etc
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La existencia de un documento escrito asegurando una cosa no prueba nada por sí sola, pero que no encontremos vestigios materiales de lo afirmado por el documento tampoco prueba que ello no sea más que un mito, y eso, como científico, tienes que reconocerlo.
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Of course! The absence of proofs proves nothing! This is what I have been telling you all along! If there is no proof, you cannot say Tartessos did exist! Let's put a *silly* example. Greek texts talk about sirens, centaurs, minotaurs, cyclops, etc... did any these creatures ever exist in reality? If I understood your logic, you would conclude that in spite of the absolute lack of evidence in favor of the existence of such creatures, nobody can affirm that they did not exist. Is that a fair statement of your thinking?
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pero cuando un pueblo registra un mito, está haciéndose eco de un hecho real.
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I think what you mean is that myths are in general loosely based on real facts that could not be undertood at the time the myth was created. I agree with that. For example, a very hard rainfall is taken as the beginning of the Flood myth. The problem is to distinguish what is real (true) in the myth and what is not. That's precisely the job of a Historian. And this job cannot be accomplished without searching for solid proofs.
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Digresiones aparte, , y volviendo a cómo debe pensar un historiador, creo que Schulten acertó plenamente al aportar la mención de Polibio a un "reino de los tartesios" en las cláusulas del segundo tratado romano-cartaginés.
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Let me ask you this: what if Polibio was merely creating literature when writing what he wrote. What if he was lied about all this or he himself made up the details? This is circumstantial evidence. It's not enough.
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Esto indicó que existía un "reino tartésico" y que ambas repúblicas tenían, o habían tenido, relaciones con él.
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I agree. In your own words Polibio's text is an indication. Exactly what I have been telling you all along
Too long already. I'll address Waku's comment in a different post
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02-03-2001 06:26
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