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Alexander01
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A better leader for the Scots than William Wallace would undoubtedly be Robert the Bruce, who actually won.
However, if there is even a CivIII expansion, I would consider the Celts as a far more likelihood than the Scots by themselves. But since the English are "Britain" in CivIII, it's quite possible that all the Scottish, Welsh and Irish cities are included with them.
(In the 1100s, Henry II became Lord of Ireland, and it stayed that way till 1916, I believe. Wales was conquered in the 1300s by Edward I, and Scotland was united with England in the 1700s, having been ruled as a dual monarchy for a time, (James I and VI of England and Scotland, etc.) it became Queen Anne of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, until the Irish had to run off with Eamon deValera, the Irish Hitler, and some other rubbish.)
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Oerdin
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of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:15
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In order to keep the application of the Scottish Civ rolling I took the top 32 names of Scottish cities from Call to Power II. It's interesting to note that both CTPI and CTPII include the Scots but Civ3 will not. Say what you will about the CTP series but they at least got one thing right....
Capital: Glasgow.
Other cities: Edinburgh, Stirling, Perth, Falkirk, Dunbar, Muir of Ord, Gairlock, Aberdeen, Kilmarnock, Cowdenbeath, Nairn, Bathgate, Linlithgow, Iverness, Melrose, Rothsay, Monifeth, Aviemore, Kirkaaldy, fraserburgh, Portlethen, Glenrothes, Dufftown, Findhorn, Borgue, Lockerbie, Dalkeith, Gretna, Dingwall, Glasgowl.
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Oerdin
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of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:15
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I see that I shall have to reinforce my argument in several way if I wish to gain acceptance. So let me respond to your last post and then I shall go over a few new points.
quote:
Originally posted by Alexander01
A better leader for the Scots than William Wallace would undoubtedly be Robert the Bruce, who actually won. |
Your right Robert the Bruce would make a better head of State then William Wallace. Wallace could then be used as the nation's great war leader or general.
quote:
However, if there is even a CivIII expansion, I would consider the Celts as a far more likelihood than the Scots by themselves. But since the English are "Britain" in CivIII, it's quite possible that all the Scottish, Welsh and Irish cities are included with them. |
I will respond to the Celts part below, however, I just check the Civ3 web site and it most surely lists an "English" civ and not a "British" one. If the civ's name was British then I would drop my petetion for the inclusion of Scotland (because the term Britian would include both England & Scotland) but since they don't then I have reasonable grounds to prosue the inclusion of Scotland. If England can be seporate then so can Scotland.
Point #1 Why Should the Term Scots and not Celts be used?
This is because there has never been any civilization named "Celts". Celtic is simply a language sub group (of which there are many sub-sub groups) of the Indoeuropean family not a nation. The Celtic language group streched from eastern China, south to Asia Minor and northwest to the British Isles. The largest and most populous country that more or less is a part of this sub-group is Scotland.
Point #2 Why should Scotland be differentiated from England?
The first reason is because it was a seporate country for atleast 1700 of the approximately 2000 years of recorded history in the British Isles. The Second reason is because the U.N. Education, Scientific, & Cultural Organization (UNESCO) considers Scotland to be culturally distinct from England with several "World Heritage Sites" (such as St. Kilda, Hadrian's Wall, old towne Edinbourgh, & the Orkney Islands' Neolithic monuments) considered to be major contributions to world culture (let us remember culture is very import in Civ3).
Point #3 But didn't the English conquer the Scottish?
Scotland has a proud history of Independence which began when they repulsed the invading Roman Legions (the English were conquered by the Romans). The English did speratically invade (1st invasion in 1160 with dozens following) and attempt to rule Scotland during the middle ages but they were never able to hold on to it. By 1314 the the English throw in the towel and once again recognized Scottish independance. In an interesting twist of fate in 1603 Elizabeth I (of England) died without an heir so James Stuart (King of Scotland) became the legal ruler of England as well. Thus, in a way, the Scottish took over the English and not vica versa.
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Alexander01
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I understand the points you are trying to make, Oerdin. I myself am a student of Scottish history.
However, in CivIII, the English civilization's nation name is Britain. (Like the Greek civilization's is Greece). So it appears the goose is already cooked.
I would also like to see te Scots, but in a game like CivIII it's not feasible. I can't visualize Firazis including smaller civilizations like CTP had (Jamaicans!  ). That's why they chose Britain, I think.
I know the Scots have been independent for a long time; I know they have a different culture. They even have a different language, Scots, which although it is very similar to English, it is not the same. It developed separately over the course of time. Sort of like Danish and Swedish. They are different, but similar enough to be understood most of the time (though you'll have a fit trying to understand some of those true highlanders).
And there was a true Celtic culture. The La Tene Celt culture existed in present day France, Germany, and northern Italy while Rome was still keeping Hannibal's elephants out of its hair.
There really were a people known as the Celts, but it is also a wide-reaching name - Britons, Scots, Irish, Picts, welsh, Gauls, Bretons. They're all Celts.
Just like Germans can refer to lots of groups or to a specific civ. "Germanic" peoples and so on.
Does this all make sense?
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Oerdin
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of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Alexander01
And there was a true Celtic culture. The La Tene Celt culture existed in present day France, Germany, and northern Italy while Rome was still keeping Hannibal's elephants out of its hair.
There really were a people known as the Celts, but it is also a wide-reaching name - Britons, Scots, Irish, Picts, welsh, Gauls, Bretons. They're all Celts. |
Let me use an example as to why this logic is wrong. Take the Slavs for example; you could run around say there should be a "Slav Civilization" in civ 3 however there has never been and there will never be a unified slavic state/civ. Instead we have Russians, Ukrainians, Bielrus (spelling?), Serbs, Croats, Bulgars, Macedonians, and an astounding number of other ethnic and cultural groups. You just can't have one group called "The Slavs" and pretend it is a viable civ. It isn't.
The same is true for "Celts". There is just to many different groups that are just to distantly related (or even just tangentially related) for us to consider them an orginized civ.
We recognize both Germans and English as a civ even though both are in the same "Germanic" family and we recognize Russia (not a "Slavic" civ) because Russia is the most powerful and most populous member of the Slavic sub group. Shouldn't we similiarly recongnize Scotland as the largest and most powerful "Celtic" group?
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Saint Marcus
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Scio Me Nihil Scire
Jan 1970
time: 06:15
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Constantine II: It was that in his early twenties, Constantine mac Aed became King of Pictland. The kingdom had been nearly destroyed by the Vikings, but its peoples, Picts and Gael, faced with the prospect of Viking conquest, had drawn together. In 902 AD, the Vikings, under Ivar the Younger of Dublin, returned to seize Dunkeld, where St Columba's relics were kept, and the rich farmlands around the River Tay. Constantine caught up with Ivar at Strathcarron in 904 AD, and, in a bitter struggle, Ivar and his Viking army were massacred. With the defeat of the Vikings, regeneration of the kingdom was Constantine's top priority. He remodelled the church along Gaelic lines and brought in a system of mormaers (earls) to defend the
kingdom more efficiently. He also renamed the territory, Alba, which is actually means Britain in Gaelic. Pictland was remade in a Gaelic image and the Scottish nation was launched. Constantine continued to extend Alba's influence across Scotland. The east coast, south of the river Forth and modern-day Edinburgh, was Angle territory and often very hostile at that, until 918 AD, when Constantine led his army into Northumbria. At the Battle of Corbridge, he forced Ragnall, the Viking King of York, to withdraw from the Angle earldom of Northumbria that stretched from Lothian to the Tyne. In return the restored earl, Eadred, recognised Constantine as his overlord. For the first time much of the land in modern-day Scotland was either under the direct kingship of the King of Alba or was under his rule as overlord.
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Oerdin
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of Internet Music.
Sep 2001
time: 21:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandman
1. Edinburgh is the capital of Scotland, not Glasgow.
2. It is worth considering that the Scottish Golden Age happened after the Act of Union in 1707. Prior to this, Scotland was an unsuccessful nation.
3. The Highlander is too much of a stereotype. And they were as much an enemy of lowland Scotland as anywhere else. |
1. Edinburgh is the modern capital of Scotland but Glasgow was the historical Capital prior to the 1500s. Here's a quote from www.scotsmart.com.
"Although Parliament tended to meet in Edinburgh from mid 15thC it can only be described as 'official capital' under James V from around 1530. The Castle tended to always have been military and not the Royal residence. The monarch would stay at Holyrood but was more likely to be found at Falkland, Dunfermline, Stirling or Linlithgow". So technically we could have either Edinburgh or Glasgow as the Capital.
2. Now, as to Scotland being an "unsuccessful nation" prior to 1707. Are you aware that Scotland was unified under one king when England was still divided amongst seven different kingdoms? (This is the earliest unification of any modern European state) By 380 the Scots had been widely converted to Christianity and centers of learning such as Whitehorn were founded. By 1124 numerous castles,churches, fortifications, & trading centers had arisen with in the country plus the country was strong enough and successful enough that in 1165AD King William I (known as the Lion) raised an army and lead a Crusade to Palestine. Surely, if the country was weak and unsuccessful it wouldn't have been able to finance a war half a world away on another continent.
3. I personally like the highlander UU because it is uniquely Scottish and is well known by most people, however, I'd be happy to listen to any other alternatives. Can you come up with any, Sandman?
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22-09-2001 20:48
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