22-09-2001 21:53									#1
	Serious golden age problem Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

I just came to think of something kind of important.

If you get a produktion bonus when you have your golden age the civilizations that get their golden age late (germans, americans etc.) will be able to time it so that when the space race begins they enter the golden age.

They will then be able to complete the spaceship in much shorter, perhaps half, the time! Then it would be very easy to win the game using this tactic.

Thats really unfair and i hope that golden age only gives food and trade bonuses.

	22-09-2001 21:58									#2
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Maybe, but a boost in the beginning could also be good. You could get long in advance in knowledge.

	22-09-2001 22:03									#3
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Yep, but i think it will be better to have the golden age late anyway since you often wage big wars in the endgame.

But about being able to use the golden age to complete the space race at half the time is nothing less than a bug to me and will be game ruining in especially multiplayer games.

	22-09-2001 22:13									#4
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quote: Originally posted by Gramphos Maybe, but a boost in the beginning could also be good. You could get long in advance in knowledge.

this is true

	22-09-2001 22:20									#5
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But if the other start the spaceship construction 50 turns before you have invented it due to an early golden age boosting your science? And You would also need to build the Apollo Program, now the Civ with abilities that trig a golden age by the Apollo Program (if any) would have the best abilities.

	22-09-2001 22:21									#6
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not really.
In the beginning it often takes about 15-20 turns to research a technology and in the endgame it would take perhaps 5 turns (in civ2)

This means the the advantages of having the golden age late is bigger since it would perhaps give 5 extra technologies instead of 2, this is based on the fact that a golden age is a fixed number of turns.

But this thread isnt about that, its about some civs being able to build the spaceship in half the time.

	22-09-2001 22:27									#7
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quote: But if the other start the spaceship construction 50 turns before you have invented it due to an early golden age boosting your science? And You would also need to build the Apollo Program, now the Civ with abilities that trig a golden age by the Apollo Program (if any) would have the best abilities.

Do you really think that golden age will be so special that it will give any big benefit?

I dont. But i think that if some civs can use it when they build thier spaceship they game will get very unbalanced.

	22-09-2001 22:34									#8
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i think there is an option to turn golden ages and unique units off isnt there....

and also, i think that they already said that things like golden age etc wont make a massive game imbalencing impact, but more of a slight lil local one.

	22-09-2001 22:38									#9
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quote: Originally posted by DonJoel not really. In the beginning it often takes about 15-20 turns to research a technology and in the endgame it would take perhaps 5 turns (in civ2) This means the the advantages of having the golden age late is bigger since it would perhaps give 5 extra technologies instead of 2, this is based on the fact that a golden age is a fixed number of turns. But this thread isnt about that, its about some civs being able to build the spaceship in half the time.

That depends on how you play, you could boost your science in the beginning with building some roads around your cities before you get into war with anyone and trigger the GA. Also the number of bulbs it took for an advance to be invented depended on what year it started, and how many advances you had invented before.

	22-09-2001 22:41									#10
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quote: Originally posted by DonJoel Do you really think that golden age will be so special that it will give any big benefit? I dont. But i think that if some civs can use it when they build thier spaceship they game will get very unbalanced.

I said it was better to have it trigged by the building of the Apollo Program then by he unit.

And also don't you think that they would need to use their UUs before they have invented Space Flight?

	22-09-2001 22:47									#11
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quote: And also don't you think that they would need to use their UUs before they have invented Space Flight?

Nope. As for the americans i would guess the f-15 comes almost at the same time as you invent space flight. And what says that you cant be in peace if you are some other civilization?

I dont really know what apollo program do except enabling the space race, but the problem is still there.

	23-09-2001 00:01									#12
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The development of the space program is one thing to look forward to . . .

	23-09-2001 00:38									#13
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IIRC, a golden age only increases TRADE, not production...

	23-09-2001 01:01									#14
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX IIRC, a golden age only increases TRADE, not production...

Actually, "during a 'golden age', all worked tiles in your empire contribute one additional trade and shield per turn".
It's quite a civilizational boost.

	23-09-2001 01:17									#15
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.... Don Joel, you got a really good point there. How about making the golden age happen whenever you either build the UU or get the technology for it? Both elimate the need to unecessarily make war to have the golden age, but the latter is better since it prevents the player from delaying production. The only problem is that civs with early UU would have their golden ages start maybe 10 turns into the game (or at the start for the Aztecs)..... this is what i feared about UUs all the time, that they would unbalance the game.

	23-09-2001 01:22									#16
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then i obviously didn;t recall correctly

	23-09-2001 01:28									#17
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"Actually, "during a 'golden age', all worked tiles in your empire contribute one additional trade and shield per turn".
It's quite a civilizational boost. "

Holy CRAP!!! That's like having a Colossus and King Richard's Crusade in EVERY city!

	23-09-2001 01:28									#18
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this is just one adavantage of being a civ that gets its GA late in game. if you get it earlier u can get an edge over other civs, and therefore get apollo first

	23-09-2001 01:49									#19
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science bonus for begining would be better than production bonus


I have a better idea

Different gold ages depending on the different abbilities of your civ..

	23-09-2001 01:53									#20
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*sigh*

quote: But this thread isnt about that, its about some civs being able to build the spaceship in half the time.

And you've played the game to know?

quote: this is just one adavantage of being a civ that gets its GA late in game. if you get it earlier u can get an edge over other civs, and therefore get apollo first

This very well could be true, but personally I'm going to wait a while before I make sweeping generalizations. None of us have played the game yet (you're not holdong out on us are you?) so at this point we have no idea how all of these new concepts will translate, because we're not just getting GAs and UUs added to Civ2, we're getting Civ3 and two of the new features are GAs and UUs. So let's not go around screaming "unfair" until we play the game.

	23-09-2001 01:59									#21
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This shouldn't be too much of a problem.

In single player, if the Americans or Germans are played and game balance becomes an issue, the designers will do what designers have always done.

They'll let the computer cheat.

For example, they can double the length of the computer's Golden Age. Add that to the increased rate of science and production the computer's always had on Emperor and above, and that takes care of the single-player issue.


In multiplayer, you forget the human element.

For example. Player A (Aztec) and Player B (Persian) see player C (American.)

Both player A and player B are in the midst of their golden ages. Player C won't have a golden age for several hundred turns.

Player A says to Player B, "Hey. Let's beat the crap out of the Americans now, before they get to their Golden Age, because the Americans are game-unbalancing."

Player A and Player B promptly proceed to eliminate the Americans from the game.

And thus, game balance is no longer an issue. People are always hostile towards the "best" empires.

Roight?

	23-09-2001 02:06									#22
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I think getting your golden age early could balance out with getting it late.
say you are at war with pesky civ on your continent and you can suddenly build twice as much as he can as well as having better troops you're bound to win thus gaining his cities and any techs he has. His cities then have the entire game to repay what advantage you would have by getting your golden age in the later ages.
And in a battle in the later ages you probably won't make such a military gain as his cities should be well protected by city walls and other inventions Sid's thrown in

	23-09-2001 04:39									#23
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Considering that building Great Wonders can also trigger GA's, then any nation that tries to hold back on it's GA until the Space Race will probably be so far behind the other civs that built the Wonders that the game is over before they can even start building the space ship.

Well maybe...

	23-09-2001 07:31									#24
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This has been discussed before.

One thing many people forget is advantages gained early on in the game will be multiplied throughout the ages.

One thing I have just realised. GA favours ICS.


Oops.

	23-09-2001 09:01									#25
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quote: In the beginning it often takes about 15-20 turns to research a technology

Not if you know what you're doing.

	23-09-2001 11:25									#26
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Well, the point is that researching is faster later anyway.
But im not going to argue about wehter (did i spell it right?) its best to have the golden age late or in the beggining, im just saying that it could be used by some civilization during the space race to complete their space ship in half. And that seems a little bit wierd dont you think?

Otherwise I dont think golden age will matter that much, so saying that a civilization that has their godlen age earlier will become much bigger sounds like alot of crap to me.

	23-09-2001 16:50									#27
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quote: wehter (did i spell it right?)

i hope that was a joke. WHETHER

	23-09-2001 17:25									#28
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quote: One thing many people forget is advantages gained early on in the game will be multiplied throughout the ages. One thing I have just realised. GA favours ICS.

Exactly.

I still feel that an early GA gives its country a much bigger advantage. Higher production and such allows the civ to produce settlers faster and spread out its cities . . . an important ICS concept.

ICS is a proven (and, IMOHO, boring) technique used to win civ games. It is so effective that even Firaxis itself has implemented safeguard features in Civ 3 to reduce or eliminate its effects. Hopefully, they have found a way to balance all this out. Thank goodness it's an option that I can always turn off.

	23-09-2001 17:54									#29
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quote: i hope that was a joke. WHETHER

You know what? I bet I am better att swedish than you are and that you are better at english. Do you now how to spel whether in swedish? Didnt think so.

	23-09-2001 18:05									#30
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quote: Originally posted by jdd2007 i hope that was a joke. WHETHER

Hey news flash. The world is full of many different cultures and languages. And surprise, English is not the native language of many members of this forum.

Get out and learn about the rest of the world you arrogant twit.

Perhaps I shouldn't be so harsh, but damn, sometimes the stupidity of so many people compounded builds up and I have to vent.