24-09-2001 05:11									#1
	is Joan of Arc politically correct? I want Clemencau Suffering from ads?

Joan of Arc (jeanne d'arc for you frenchies) seems to be included rather than such leaders as Charles De Gaulle, Napoleon, Louis XIV, St. Louis, Charlemagne at least in part with the idea that the game should be "politically correct" ie that it should include female leaders. This is seen by some as concession to the "left" This is profoundly ironic, as the cult of Jeanne d'arc was created in the late 19th c by catholic, royalist (ie RIGHT WING) frenchmen looking for a national symbol that was not associated the secular, democratic (ie Left wing) third Republic - as were the tricolor, the Marseillase, the 14th of July (instituted as a holiday for the first time by the third republic) It is both ironic, and a sign of how identity politics has distorted the left that this icon for the most backward and reactionary elements in French politics is considered "left wing"

Moi, I want Clemencau(sp?) for the French leader.

LOTM

	24-09-2001 05:55									#2
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Well, probably the only thing I'll notice about the French is that they are PINK

	24-09-2001 12:58									#3
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

IIRC, JoA is the female leader. I agree that Napoleon should be ahead of her, but that is for the male leader.

	24-09-2001 15:19									#4
	Increase the size of your Attachments

there are no male and female leaders. just one for each civ.

	24-09-2001 17:15									#5
	Put an end to popups!

What one leader symbolises france more than any other? I bet you most French people would say Jeanne d'Arc. Q.E.D. (I suspect a fair portion would say Asterix the Gaul, though. )

(p.s. Politically correct my arse. Diversity, interest, colour, fun. We already have a Napoleon-a-like in Alexander, a Talleyrand in Bismarck, a De Gaulle in Mao and a Louis XIV in Catherine. We don't have a Clemenceau, that's true, but find someone who is not a history freak or French who even knows who he is (of the type, Danton or Robespierre would be more well-known though more controversial and certainly less good choices) and you are better than I think you are.)

	24-09-2001 17:28									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

Why can't they have two leaders like in previous Civs?

	24-09-2001 17:53									#7
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by Snapcase We don't have a Clemenceau, that's true, but find someone who is not a history freak or French who even knows who he is

Come on, he's not really obscure...

	24-09-2001 17:55									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by Earthling7 Why can't they have two leaders like in previous Civs?

Because that would have virtually doubled the art budget and delayed the release...

	24-09-2001 20:23									#9
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

quote: Originally posted by KrazyHorse Come on, he's not really obscure...

Add "person living in Montreal" to the list.

	24-09-2001 20:28									#10
	Suffering from ads?

Joanne d'ark a PC thingie? Nah, I think it is a Hollywood thingy... how many films with Clemanceu do you remember? How many hit films, actually.

But Joanne... oh, they made that attrocity film (starring that nympho model... don't remember her name, Mila something...) and everybody jumps up "hey, it's old Joanne, yeah!"

On a more serious note, having her as a leader of France is - frankly (no pun intented) - ridiculous. If they were looking for a real leader, try Clemanceau or De Gaulle... if a "recognisible" face, try Napoleon... if a controversial, try Robespierre... or you can go back to the Luis

But not a half-crazed peasant girl used by the church of France to gain attention... Bah!

	24-09-2001 20:29									#11
	Got spare money?

How about Charles Martel, Charlemagne and Clovis?

And De Gaulle is no Mao. LOL.

Clemencau pour roi! (deliberate bad french )

	24-09-2001 20:34									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Actually, I can't believe they shafted Louis Quatorze out of top spot. He was the model of kings fo centuries to come! He was the state! He was King for...I can't remember, but it was a really long time (67yrs?)!

	24-09-2001 20:39									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

I agree. I want the Sun King in the game. He wasn't in any civ game

"The law? That's me"

	24-09-2001 21:18									#14
	Inflate your Upload Space

quote: Originally posted by Snapcase What one leader symbolises france more than any other? I bet you most French people would say Jeanne d'Arc. Q.E.D. (I suspect a fair portion would say Asterix the Gaul, though. ) (p.s. Politically correct my arse. Diversity, interest, colour, fun. We already have a Napoleon-a-like in Alexander, a Talleyrand in Bismarck, a De Gaulle in Mao and a Louis XIV in Catherine. We don't have a Clemenceau, that's true, but find someone who is not a history freak or French who even knows who he is (of the type, Danton or Robespierre would be more well-known though more controversial and certainly less good choices) and you are better than I think you are.)

De Gaulle = Mao ??? are you kidding?????

We dont get churchill, FDR, De gaulle.

Do we get ONE democratically elected modern leader - It looks like Lincoln is the ONLY democratically elected leader we get at all - greeks get Alex instead of Pericles.

I am disappointed.

LOTM

	24-09-2001 21:45									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I'm not a huge European history buff or anything, but I've never heard of this Clemencau guy. Most of the other names are familiar.

	24-09-2001 22:01									#16
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

quote: Originally posted by Kyller I'm not a huge European history buff or anything, but I've never heard of this Clemencau guy. Most of the other names are familiar.

Im not up on Franch leaders, but I think he was prime minister at the out break of WW2. But im not sure. Could have been WW1. where are all the French people?. M'aider S.V.P

	24-09-2001 22:02									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Clemanceau was the WW1 French PM, involved in the Versaille treaty.

	24-09-2001 22:07									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Thx for clearing it up, I was editing when you posted.

	24-09-2001 23:39									#19
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by Ubik Joanne d'ark a PC thingie? Nah, I think it is a Hollywood thingy... how many films with Clemanceu do you remember? How many hit films, actually. But Joanne... oh, they made that attrocity film (starring that nympho model... don't remember her name, Mila something...) and everybody jumps up "hey, it's old Joanne, yeah!" On a more serious note, having her as a leader of France is - frankly (no pun intented) - ridiculous. If they were looking for a real leader, try Clemanceau or De Gaulle... if a "recognisible" face, try Napoleon... if a controversial, try Robespierre... or you can go back to the Luis But not a half-crazed peasant girl used by the church of France to gain attention... Bah!

first i think de gaulle or napolean should be the leader but since joan de arc is i would like to say that she was a chosen saint and not a "half-crazed peansent girl"

	24-09-2001 23:45									#20
	Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: there are no male and female leaders. just one for each civ.

ahhhhhhh as of when? what is this? civ1?????? thats CRAZY!!!

....ahhhh.....

	25-09-2001 00:50									#21
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

quote: Originally posted by Mark L I agree. I want the Sun King in the game. He wasn't in any civ game "The law? That's me"

It's been too long since you played the game Mark, the Sun King is default in civ2 (Louis XIV).

And BTW he is the best choise for a french leader ever!!
1. He ruled France for nearly a century (first with ministers, later on his own) - he was France.
2. He built palaces (Versailles) and sought to enrich his country (he wasn't to lucky on this one though)
3. He fought wars with all of Europe, his armies were considered invincible - only an alliance between all the other contries stopped him.
4. He had defined style and fashion, organization of government and army and all other European kings of his century and most of the next imitated him.
5. It is impossible to discuss European absolutism or even European monarchy in without mentioning him.

When did Joan of Arc rule France?

	25-09-2001 00:58									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

quote: Originally posted by jdd2007 ...as of when?

Did you think they would make two fully animated leaders for each civ when they'd already cut the number of civs from 21 to 16?
These animated faces are one of the things Firaxis is using for PR, they are all over the adds. They wouldn't hide them from the public (or us ).

	25-09-2001 09:26									#23
	Put an end to popups!

quote: Originally posted by Mark L I agree. I want the Sun King in the game. He wasn't in any civ game "The law? That's me"

"L'état, c'est moi": The State, it's me

law = loi

	25-09-2001 12:40									#24
	Increase Your PM Length

prince of rhetoric, eh? AND of french? im impressed

	25-09-2001 13:28									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

You may have a more favourable of General de Gaulle than me, but I mean, genocidal maniacs who liberated their countries in the fourties and staged an internal revolution some decades later don't grow on trees.

	25-09-2001 15:36									#26
	Support Apolyton

d_dudy

quote: first i think de gaulle or napolean should be the leader but since joan de arc is i would like to say that she was a chosen saint and not a "half-crazed peansent girl"

I miss the point... chosen saint? You mean "church wise"? or God wise? In both instances, you should know that martyrdom and a distorted mind aren't mutually exclusive... actually, usually they go together...



And... Snapcase

quote: You may have a more favourable of General de Gaulle than me, but I mean, genocidal maniacs who liberated their countries in the fourties and staged an internal revolution some decades later don't grow on trees.

Yeah, there is not even one genocidal maniac as leader in this game

And... surely, you must be talking about somebody else. Napoleon maybe? I really can't remember of another "genocidal maniac" of French origin. Oh, I forgot about Danton... ok

...or is this a PC thing? Algeria? Oh, that was surely not "genocide"...

	25-09-2001 20:42									#27
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by Snapcase You may have a more favourable of General de Gaulle than me, but I mean, genocidal maniacs who liberated their countries in the fourties and staged an internal revolution some decades later don't grow on trees.

How was De Gaulle a genocidal maniac?

LOTM

	25-09-2001 23:51									#28
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Algeria. Perhaps "Genocidal" is a little strong.

	26-09-2001 00:29									#29
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

I'd be satisfied with the inclusion of either Napoleon or Joan of Arc. They're both very intense leaders, even if very different in style. Don't underestimate the importance of JoA, she was the inspiration for a dying nation.

	26-09-2001 01:33									#30
	Got spare money?

IMHO, napolean is the hands down french leader
however its too late now, and joan will work, i guess...