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bobyk464
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More funny probe armoring stuff:
I'm in a late-game situation, and I find that armoring cruiser probes to the max adds nothing to the cost, and armoring tank probes to the max actually decreases the cost. Hmmm... (And here we find that the red number with the exclamation point for unit cost isn't a really a function of the actual unit cost, but rather of the unit configuration: the cheaper armored probe has the exclamation, the more expensive unarmored one does not.)
I find that armored probes are pretty good for use in the field. Even though they can't disengage, the armor still improves their survivability somewhat. While the benefits of armor vs the cost on probes can be debated, there's certainly no debate that high morale and the best reactor make the probes more successful at what they have to do.
In my home turf, probes in bases are typically the standard unarmored speeder type. (Can't remember, is an unarmored infantry probe cheaper than an unarmored speeder probe?) If I'm in a situation where I'm overruning somebody and have confidence that they won't be able to strike and take a base back, I'll rush-build an armored infantry probe in a conquered base immediately. Usually ECM. (Can't remember again, can you put AAA on probes?) On the next turn, the probe stays as sole defender, and the overrunning troops move on to the next target. Rush-building the probe is more costly than rushing a regular military unit, but it certainly does offer multiple levels of protection, as Russel mentioned, until the standard garrisons are put into place.
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bobyk464
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According the firaxis SMAC manual,
quote:
NON-COMBAT UNITS
Unarmed units get -50% penalty defending against combat units. A unit is considered “non-combat” if it has no weapon and no armor, so a former unit with plasma steel armor does not get the non-combat penalty when attacked. |
Maybe some misleading grammer. The only thing we can say for sure is that the -50% defense penalty is waived by adding the armor. Other than that, probes, formers, etc... still behave as non-combat in every other way when armored.
-Like Mr. johndmuller, I've never seen a probe reap the benefits from passing through a monolith either. I always get the "Perhaps we should dispatch a military unit to investigate." message.
- TKG once posted that "non-combat units may never disengage." I can't find this rule written down elsewhere, but I believe it, because I've never seen a probe disengage. Even Maritime Control Center enhanced elite armored cruiser probes.
- And we've all seen that any number of probes or formers or what have you, armored or not, are all destroyed together when the last combat unit in the stack gets destroyed.
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NorthSwordsman
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I generally find Armored probes more trouble than they are worth.
The main reason why is that you cannot equip them with police powers to help against drones, while you can easily upgrade any armored military unit to that particular function. If you add a military unit with police powers, that defeats the purpose of armored probes to begin with, as you can read from the above postings.
When you run settings that add drones (Free Market, for example, when you have military units outside of your territory), or you are playing Zakharov, Police Powers are essential when someone else gets the Virtual World and you are struggling to build anti-drone facilities.
Armored probes do reduce the support hit, through, and are useful in certain situations. such as FreeMarket and peacetime. But! No police powers makes it difficult. I would rather have regular units with police powers rather than armored probes (which are expensive, pre-fusion) and a ton of anti-drone facilities. It is cheaper to just build 2 garrisons with police powers and have 1, just 1 lousy crawler parked on an out of the way forest square to support them than paying upkeep for drone-control facilities. If you use crawlers like you should be doing, you shouldn't have any problems with support.
I do know a few things... probes cannot be upgraded by a monolith, they do not disengage, and last.... the armor isn't worth anything against worms. Morale, plus modifiers, are the determining factor. You can't use a probe to capture a worm regardless. If you are in a situation where you are under attack, it's usually better to have regular military units and a regular probe in the base.
Any idiot who runs FM during wartime is just asking for his butt to be kicked to the other side of the galaxy.
So then how do you use armored probes? I find they generally have one good use, and just one, on a rover chassis. On an infantry chassis, they have a limited use for in-base only. On a rover chassis, if you park them in areas that are equidistant to coastal bases, if someone does land on your shores (and they shouldn't!), probe the units away if at all possible. Yeah, they would be vulnerable to air attack if you do not have the proper defensive set up (See Vel's "Creating Synergy" thread). If you set up your defenses tightly enough, the air units shouldn't have the range to reach them. Besides, you should have interceptors at your coastal bases to protect them anyhow!
Hope this helps someone....
NS
Last edited by NorthSwordsman on 26-09-2001 at 03:48
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Blake
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Brainfallocatione
Oct 2000
time: 17:15
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I've noticed a few comments regarding formers being non-combat in this thread, in fact each non-combat unit is slightly different...
Crawlers, Probes and Colony pods, all die together when stacked.
Formers, have more relaxed non combat rules, specifically stacked formers dont die together like stacked probes. Also armoured formers can get repairs at monoliths. (I suspect any non-combat unit can get repaired by a monolith, if armoured....)
Additionaly, Formers, crawlers and colony pods, even unarmoured ones, incur no -50% penalty when defending in bases against mindworms. This means, if an empty base is about to get wormraped, and a former is next to the base, garrison the base with the former! Chances are it'll beat off the worm. You can also use a single crawler or a colony pod (but consider that a colony pod is as valuable as a size one base, running could be a better option).
This means formers are very usfull to garrison your bases in an emergency, especially against bloom-worms. But dont try the same trick with crawlers, because they all die with the last unit.
Under no circumstances can any non-combat unit ever capture bases (in the traditional sense), or move after an airdrop.
Overall Formers, Probes and Colonypod/Crawler follow a different set of non-combat rules. Most (all?) of these variations are undocumented.
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bobyk464
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quote:
Originally posted by Blake
I've noticed a few comments regarding formers being non-combat in this thread, in fact each non-combat unit is slightly different... |
Thanks for clarifying (un-clarifying, in this case?). I thought I was getting a little funny in the head, watching the probe/cralwer/former/pod combat/non-combat thing and unable to put together some comprehensive rules. Now we find out that there are no comprehensive rules.
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knowhow2
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of the World
Feb 2001
time: 06:15
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This threa is either starting to get real fun or is about to die out, anyway I have a slight remark. It was mentioned somewhere above that armoured probes don't have any advantages against worms, but IIRC there are such a thing as Resonance armour with trance ability, that's another +50%(?) or x2 +25% against worms. With elite morale your bases are unrapeable!
,,,,,,,,,
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Tenchusatsu
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Portland, OR (rolling and very rainy)
Feb 2001
time: 05:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Fitz
Keep dreaming boyo. Anyone who knows how to play Free Market starts in FM ASAP and never leaves it, even while they are smearing your poor little citizens across the fungus. Specialist bases or one or two punishment spheres obsolete the primary difficulty of FM, and empath takes out a psi heavy opponent. Meanwhile, you're hauling in way more money to upgrade shells and getting new tech faster than the man who isn't using FM. |
I disagree. Sometimes it's better to fight using a Green economy than FM. With a large empire, the efficiency boost of Green can make up for the lack of +1 energy/square. And you won't have pacifist drones to worry about, either. In fact, you'll even be allowed to use one police unit per base to help control drones better (i.e. less Psych energy needed).
Fighting wars under FM is possible and effective, but it's difficult. And sometimes the extra effort might not be worth it.
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24-09-2001 11:34
(at least on my version, which is SMACX 2.0). Or do I have a serious illness with my settings?
)
).
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