24-09-2001 12:10									#1
	2 strategies compared Put an end to popups!

This thread is related to 'Come, Laugh at an SG!' (thank you, SGs for giving us fun). SG1 has published a very fine comparison table showing the main milestones for different players between 4000BC and 1AD.
What I wish to do here is comparing arii's game and my game with some more details (since arii is now flying to AC, launched in 1756 IIRC, and I am planning to conquer the world, preferably sooner than tnat, ...if I can manage it).
This comparison is based upon savegames in 1AD and 1200AD (more precisely 1220 for my second save).

1) arii 1 AD:
10 cities = size 8,7,6,6,6,5,5,4,3,3 = total 53 (which means 53 + 10 = 63 Squares Worked)
Shields = 66 - 10 = 56
Gold = 32 - 14 = 18
Beakers = 146
Building Power = 138 (look at my thread, that only Carnide replied to, if you wish to know what BP means ).
Wonders = 3 (HG, Col, Mike)
triremes = 0

2) La Fayette 1 AD
9 cities = size 8, 4, 4, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 2 = 33 (42 Squares)
Shields = 40 - 22 = 18
Gold = 15 - 6 = 9
Beakers = 60
Building Power = 53
Wonders = 3 (Col, LH, Marco)
triremes = 2

3) What this means:
arii (long lasting record holder for early landing before solo and samson started their fierce battle) has developped a strong civ with help of very peaceful and clever growth (for example: no defensive units at all in non-coastal cities, and civ running at 0% luxuries under Republic, using the combined effect of HG and Mike: IMHO brilliant!).
La Fayette is late (BP=53 compared with arii's 138), but not THAT late because, with help of LH and Marco, he has already established nice foreign trade routes (unfortunately, I didn't write down the numerous beakers and gold coins involved).

In short, arii has had a strategy of internal growth, optimizing anything inside the island, with results comparable to the best (IIRC the Building Power of Dave is 142 and the BP of Smash is 140). La Fayette has started a strategy of external growth, not very impressive yet.

4) arii 1200
10 cities = 23, 17, 17, 16, 15, 12, 12, 12, 12, 11 = total 147 (157 squares)
Shields = 98 - 20 = 78
Gold = 185 - 81 = 104
Beakers = 654
Building Power = 407
Wonders = 5 ( HG, Col, Mike, Cope, Isaac)
caravels = 2

5) La Fayette 1220
9 cities = 22, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 7, 6
Shields = 81 - 24 = 57
Gold = 81 - 31 = 50
Beakers = 509
Building Power = 337
Wonders = 8 (Col, LH, Marco, Mike, Cope, Shake, Leo, Isaac)
caravels = 7

6) What this means
arii has developped a number of fat cities (5 size 12, 5 much over 12).
La Fayette has a fat SSC and (almost) 8 cities size 8.
arii has a stronger BP: 407 against 337, but La Fayette has a regular foreign trade route bringing over 100 gold (+ 100 beakers) every other turn, so that the overall power of the two civs is probably equivalent.
arii has 41 techs against 34 (but the AI has 5 techs left that LF is going to trade or steal or conquer within a few turns).
Nice game. Thank you SGs!

7) About city walls
They are costly and many of us try to avoid building them.
But...
here is what happened to my proud city of Utique in 600 AD:
combined attack by the Russians: 2 triremes, 3 elephants and 1 explorer, 'Russians take Utique'.
Cost for LF: 1 trireme (80g) with 2 caravans onboard (to be delivered next turn for a global value over 200g (+ 200 beakers ), bribe elephant: 128g, bribe explorer: about 100g, bribe city: 88g, ... and city size reduced to 1.
BUILD CITY WALLS!

	24-09-2001 12:17									#2
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

about Utique...
I forgot to mention 2 units killed during the fighting

about arii...
please tell me if I have made mistakes when summing up

about Smash and Dave... and all the others willing...
please publish a savegame at 1200AD (will be interesting to compare IMO)

	24-09-2001 18:04									#3
	sorry Increase Your PM Length

Rereading my calculations, I notice 2 mistakes:
1) The Building Power of arii in 1200 is 457 (not 407).
2) My trade route in 1220 is 200 gold (+200 beakers) every other turn (not 100).
The conclusion remains the same: the 2 civs have probably about the same power in 1200AD.
But, if arii now starts with international trade, his civ is so much bigger than mine that I don't imagine how I could beat him to early landing (luckily, I was planning to conquer the world and this leaves me a chance ).

Last news (bad news): the LightHouse was supposed to give me a fleet of vet ironclads before ending its career, but, on the very turn when that fleet was built, the Babylonians discovered Magnetism! (bad luck? cheating AI?)

(La Fayette, ready to send a few ironclads to Babylon; BTW, remind me, is it considered cheating to look at the 'Find city' screen?)

	24-09-2001 18:33									#4
	Support Apolyton

At this point in the game, I have started on world conquest. I have attached a save from 1260. At this point, I have:
18 cities, carthage at size 11, 11 at size 5-7, and 6 at size 1-2.
gold 721, production 35-5 =30
science 70%, tax 30%
monarchy
science 39 techs, 110 beakers, 11 turns
production about 120 shields.
wonders: HG,GL,sun-tzu,KRC in carthage,Michelangelo,magellans, shakespeare's in carthage, copernicus in carthage, and adam smith's.
caravans =20
Have techs, will build leonardo, SOL, and JS bach soon.
Have location for several civs.
-----I like my position-----
Key differences:
Emphasis on many cities that can grow.
Built many useful wonders.

No walls, but I was able to attack russian landings . Almost all territory was occupied, and when they landed, I requested they leave on my turn. If they did, fine, if they declared war, I attacked. With gunpowder in research, and leonardo's imminent I should have no problem.
Also note that I have bribed smolensk, paving the way to subvert the rest of the russians.

	24-09-2001 18:37									#5
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

I'll try again to get that save

Attachment: ge-1260.zip
This has been downloaded 3 time(s).

	24-09-2001 18:39									#6
	Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

I think the key for a fast development is squares with trade specials. If you have 2 gold and 2 silk around a city, then when you build SSC there you will guarantee 1-2 turn advance rate.

	24-09-2001 19:09									#7
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

unfortuantely such a site was not available in this game.Pretty good one though.It has whale,fish and silk.The seed is not correct for a 4th

	24-09-2001 21:39									#8
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

quote: Originally posted by Smash unfortuantely such a site was not available in this game.Pretty good one though.It has whale,fish and silk.(

...and you seem to handle it (though it will be difficult for me to forgive you caravan rehoming , since I was a great adept until it became forbidden by the community of Apolytoners about 8 months ago).
Do you agree to publish a savegame when you reach 1200 AD, for the sake of comparison?

	24-09-2001 23:18									#9
	3rd strategy compared Suffering from ads?

geofelt
1260 is not far from 1200. I suppose that your savegame can be compared with arii's and mine:
18 cities = 11, 7, 6, 6, 6, 5,... = total 78 (96 squares worked)
Shields = 130 - 5 = 125
Gold = 35 - 5 = 30
Beakers = 110
Building Power = 195
10 wonders and 39 techs

Your strategy seems to be close to Dave's and the Gits' (I mean what Dave and the Gits seemed to have chosen before 1AD): smaller and more numerous cities than arii or smash or LF, stay in Monarchy and build many wonders.

Since you have chosen conquest, your strategy will be compared with mine (and other conquerors) from now on (because comparing with early landers in the endgame wouldn't be very meaningful IMO).

	24-09-2001 23:33									#10
	smash Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

smash, I have had a look at your savegames 500AD and 1000AD.
IMO you have done a very brilliant demonstration of the power of caravan rehoming.
31 techs in 500AD
51 techs in 1000AD
This means 20 techs discovered in 25 turns! almost 1tech/turn!
You have probably been able to deliver abroad (Little Big Horn or equivalent) about 2 caravans/turn rehomed in your giant city of Carthage (size 25!).
This makes me remember the old days, when I loved rehoming...

(La Fayette, dreaming about the old days 'rehoming in the Wyoming with a smiley from Ming')

	25-09-2001 01:32									#11
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

ya it is a big difference.Non Carthage ones are lucky to get 300 for demanded.Jumps to between 700 and 950 when re-homed.I been thinkin about it and I really don't have a problem with it.Its one of the main reasons to build the Collosus for me.Against the ai I don't really care what is done.It not as if it is something everybody can't do.

in mp..well if I have Collosus..then yes..otherwise

Seriously,I would not have a fit over it in MP.I'd think "Good playin...wish I would have built it(Collosus)"..it takes alot more than some re-homed caravans.

I have said my "Holy Marys" and am awaiting further penance

	25-09-2001 02:51									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Very good analysis La fayette. The comparison is very interesting.
I also did a lot of foreign trade and rehoming the caravans to my SSC but only after magnetism. I thought that sending a bunch of boats out would be too costly in terms of unhappiness and WLTPD growh of my cities. That might have been a mistake. I should probably have sacrificed the growth of 1 or 2 cities and get the trade benefit.
Like smash I used Leo to keep the other civs at bay. Also giving them techs to maintain peace.

	25-09-2001 10:12									#13
	Increase the size of your Attachments

ok here I am in 1200 ad.9 more techs since last time.JSB,Hoover and Adam Smith....and superhighways in Carthage!..1st freight with s-hwy brought 1500 and change..yahoo!....I "lost" the 1 tech when I switched my destination to America.2 routes with Little Bighorn were replaced but they are/were the same value.But it looks like American cities have a shot at least size 14 or 15.Some repeaters also 2 turns with raw beakers,easy 1 with a freight.

Caralis has some nice routes with Carthage thanks to RR bonus.I still haven't gotten around to all the RRs....Refrigeration came along and Carthage was growing.

Attachment: rr1200ad.sav.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	25-09-2001 10:25									#14
	proposal Support Apolyton

AFAIK here are the people involved:
Makeo (played a 5 city-no wonder challenge )
arii (launched 1756 with some caravan rehoming)
smash (51 techs in 1000AD with 'some' caravan rehoming)
Dave (number 1 in power at 1AD, probably on his way to conquer the world before 1500AD)
geofelt (perhaps willing to conquer before Dave and LF, but that's going to be a tough job)
Xarathas (finished with BC years)
and of course...
the Gits (also finished with BC years)
and myself...
and kcbob is willing to join us .

The map chosen by the Gits is very interesting (thank you SGs).
We all learn from one another playing it and publishing results.
This comparison game is perhaps the last BIG EVENT on this forum before civ3 swallows us.
The game played by smash until 1000AD shows clearly that with and without caravan rehoming are 2 different games (early landing and early conquest also are).
Some of us have more spare time or play more rapidly than others.

Therefore, here is my proposal:
'Freedom and honesty ': no need to regulate, anyone plays as he likes, but any use of any method that some people might consider a cheat is mentioned.
Newcomers are welcome (hello kcbob!) and 'ancient' players are allowed to play again, either from 4000BC or from 1AD, if they feel like it.
Within a few days or weeks from now, one of us starts a new thread named: 'ideas derived from playing the great Carthaginian
comparison game started by the Gits' (I swear I shall contribute, but I would love to test those ideas first).

	25-09-2001 13:04									#15
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

at 1200
11 cities-33-3x12-2x11-10-2x7-2x6-total127+11?=138
sheilds- 78-32=46
gold-0-56=-56
beakers-1339
BP-if I got this right-46+(1/2 1032)=562
wonders(11)Col,Mich,Cope,Isaac,Shake,JSB,Leo,Magel
lan,Adam Smith,Hoover,Darwin's
Transports-6

	25-09-2001 14:53									#16
	Re: proposal Increase the size of your Attachments

quote: Originally posted by La Fayette Dave (number 1 in power at 1AD, probably on his way to conquer the world before 1500AD)

Actually, I'm planning to go for AC, for two reasons. I've played some large-map conquest games, and they take an awful lot of time. Secondly, someone (Blaupanzer, I think) posted in the original thread that he could win by conquest but not by spaceship. I've always thought that conquest is the easiest road to victory, and the easiest way to space is to subjugate the world and then build the spaceship at your leisure. So my plan is to play a "straight" AC game (and probably be beaten to AC by one of the AIs).

I'm still playing at my usual slow pace (currently AD380), and will continue to post results. I am probably a week or two away from 1200.

	25-09-2001 15:01									#17
	Support Apolyton

Don't forget the maximum score game. That is the original objective. The problem is that it gets tedious at the end. How about a max score game with a few restrictions to reduce the micromanagement at the end:
1) use a minimum sized map of 25x40
2) no engineer transformations(only mine/irrigate swamps and
jungle)
I have done this before, and it takes an evening or two to conquer most of the world, and another to build out to the max.

	25-09-2001 20:01									#18
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

smash
It seems that your on your way to launch several years sooner than arii... Wait and see.
Do you agree to publish your 1200AD savegame?

Dave
Bravo, bravissimo!
You show us that you are much more than a very clever warmonger (and this gives me a chance to be number 1 to conquer ).
If you wish to compete with smash and arii, please rehome your caravans!
If you don't rehome any, this gives you a chance to be early launcher without caravan rehoming .
BTW thank you for your very precise and interesting logs.

geofelt
I hope you go on conquering, so that we may compare your game and mine. I am now planning to publish a 1600AD savegame (if someone can explain how this can be done ).

	25-09-2001 22:05									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I have already completed both the conquest game, and the spaceship game. I was using my typical strategy for each without the attempt to achieve the earliest completion. The next installment of a save game for conquest is 1760 which is attached.

Attachment: ge-1760.zip
This has been downloaded 2 time(s).

	25-09-2001 22:10									#20
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

The next save for the spaceship game is 1200 which is attached.

Attachment: rb-1200.zip
This has been downloaded 4 time(s).

	25-09-2001 23:39									#21
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

you can do whatever you want with my saves.I grant complete autonomy.

Geo..your SS game save come thru as a scenario.Is this correct?

	26-09-2001 06:04									#22
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

The rb-1200 game should be a .sav file. I downloaded it and it loads fine on 2.42 and mge.