24-09-2001 22:27									#1
	Middle tile shouldn't produce indefinitely Support Apolyton, buy Civilization: The Boardgame

Yup, you heard me right. Or at least it should change with time.

Do you still think that New-York is producing food IN the city? Nah... But I'd guess maybe it could produce differently or something... But necessarily, in any city, the city itself changes its production vocations quite fast. Only need a few thousands inhabitants, and the center of the city is full of buildings, not of crops nor carriboo hunting nor many other things.

Notice that this also may also influence the ICS debate introduced by Metamorph.

	24-09-2001 22:46									#2
	Inflate your Upload Space

Why not? Every city is different. Take for example Chicago. As the city grew, they eventually had the biggest stockyards on earth. Food was being produced there, as well as fish being caught in the lake.

And at what point would we cut off food production? What size would the city need to be? Seems too vague, and would be an unnecessary frustration in the game.

Last edited by saracen31 on 24-09-2001 at 23:37

	24-09-2001 23:32									#3
	Inflate your Upload Space

Whilst I agree with the sentiment how many cities take up 200x200 miles. You can fit a large city and lots of farmland in that area.

(200x200 is the figure banded around for the area of a tile)

	24-09-2001 23:55									#4
	Remove this text

There is a lot of "in between" land in Civ that you never use, but one can reasonably infer it would be occupied and cultivated much as the Midwest is but without having huge cities. Therefore, the food produced by a city center can be the implied food produced from outlying farms. After all, when i walk down the streets of NYC, there are fresh vegetable and fruit stands all over the place, and Union Square hosts a farmer's market all the time. Had to come from somewhere!

Cheers.

	25-09-2001 00:28									#5
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

I think it's 200 square miles not 200 x 200 miles. That would make a 256 x 256 tile map roughly 3500 x 3500 miles. You wouldn't a world map to be bigger due to the endless terrain that would remain unexplored or unsettled.

	25-09-2001 01:28									#6
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

I meant km...

Anywho

The surface of the Earth is 200,000,000 square miles, so a 3,500 by 3,500 map would cover about 1/16th of the globe.

Thought I'd make my own investigation...

4pr²=510,945,516 square km

r= 6,376 km. I'm scared I knew that off by heart!.

256x256 tiles = 65,536
100x100 tiles= 10,000

=> 1 tile = 51094 km² = 226 x 226 km = 141x141 miles
=> 1 tile = 7796 km²= 88 x 88 km =55 x 55 miles

Hope that cleared that up.

EDIT - Clarity

Last edited by Dauphin on 25-09-2001 at 17:25

	25-09-2001 17:03									#7
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

Not sure.

What did you do?

	25-09-2001 17:23									#8
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

Divided total surface area by total number of tiles for each of two cases.

	25-09-2001 17:37									#9
	Tired of ads?

The problem isn't that the "city tile" produces food, shields, trade, it's the fact that cities get an extra tile for production based on their population size. Size three cities actually work four tiles, etc. If the initial population point could only work the city tile this wouldn't be an issue. People couldn't work any square outside their city radius until they were size two or better.

Don't cut the production in the city square, just equal the number of tiles that can be worked, including the tile with the city in it, to the size of the city. Problem solved.

	25-09-2001 17:39									#10
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

I wasn't talking necessarily of cutting it off. Simply to make it logical. The central city itself wont produce the same things that it would without having a city over it.

	25-09-2001 21:22									#11
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: Originally posted by Ozymandous The problem isn't that the "city tile" produces food, shields, trade, it's the fact that cities get an extra tile for production based on their population size. Size three cities actually work four tiles, etc. If the initial population point could only work the city tile this wouldn't be an issue. People couldn't work any square outside their city radius until they were size two or better. Don't cut the production in the city square, just equal the number of tiles that can be worked, including the tile with the city in it, to the size of the city. Problem solved.

I understand this idea, but I think the problem is that this would slow the start of the game a great degree. I don't think they want to make the opening years any slower than they already are.

Cheers.

	25-09-2001 21:33									#12
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Agreed Boris. It looks like they've taken a couple measures to prevent ICS. Let's not slow down the beginning of the game too much.

	25-09-2001 21:35									#13
	Inflate your Upload Space

I think the size and number of tiles on the normal, large and huge maps are more predicated on what is realistic for gameplay and not geographical realism. If it's too big, you have the danger of 8 civs each growing in complete isolation. The area the tile represents is probably irrelevant whether they are 200 or 3000 sq miles. All it matters is that 1 tile = 1 movement pts modified by terrain. Plus, with scenarios, I've seen a tile represents a building on a city block (like the Mafia scenario) to whole countries (like the world_s map).

	25-09-2001 22:12									#14
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I've dubbed myself the unofficial **** Realism Club President.

You shouldn't be asking yourself if a game feature is realistic. Instead, you should be asking yourself if it is fun. If you think about it, the only point of basing Civ off of Earth is that it's easy to understand the technologies, etc., and it gives Firaxis a nice base and ample content to include in the game. It does not mean that Firaxis needs to make Civ an "Earth Sim". If you want straight realism, play a simulation.

	25-09-2001 22:19									#15
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by saracen31 Agreed Boris. It looks like they've taken a couple measures to prevent ICS. Let's not slow down the beginning of the game too much.

Rumor has it the food "required" boxes stay a set size, i.e. 40 food for cities 8-12 size, etc.

If this is true it would not slow down anything but the ICS players to have each pop point only work one tile, 1 pop is city center only, if the food needed to bump a city from 1 to 5 is, for example, 40 total (10 per level) and then maybe go up by 10.

If the set food size "rumor" (based on screen shots anyway) is true then this idea would effectively kill ICS unless people wanted to simply build close together.

Hmm, come to think of it, limit tiles worked exactly to pop and bumping food required by stage would negate the need for 2 pop settlers also.

City size 2-5, 10 food per stage. Size 6-10, 20 food per stage, Size 11-15, 40 food per stage. Size 16-20, 80 food per stage, etc.

	25-09-2001 22:22									#16
	Increase Your PM Length

quote: Instead, you should be asking yourself if it is fun. If you think about it, the only point of basing Civ off of Earth is that it's easy to understand the technologies, etc., and it gives Firaxis a nice base and ample content to include in the game.

Well, yes and no. While I certainly agree with the fun point, I disagree with your second point. As enjoyable and rich as SMAC was, it sill lacked that special atmosphere of Civ. While I agree that shouldn't overdo realism to the extent that it interferes with the game mechanics, I think they should be as detailed as they can while keeping gameplay enjoyable.

Cheers.

	26-09-2001 01:05									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Good point..atmosphere is very important to a game's fun factor for some people (myself, I was at home in SMAC instantly)