25-09-2001 11:18									#1
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I hope I haven't missed an earlier thread or information on this subject ( in that case, never mind) but I was wondering about the map:

Will maps be a sphere as in CTP or at least have the option to be so?

I hope so anyway, it seemed to give a better "global" feeling.

Last edited by Tjoepie on 25-09-2001 at 14:05

	25-09-2001 11:25									#2
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I believe that it is an option (well, maybe not on earth map). Because of possible scenarios there will be a flat map option included (I think).

	25-09-2001 12:48									#3
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i dont know. i hope there are several options ...

	25-09-2001 14:37									#4
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The maps in CtP were not spheres. Wrap-arounds yes, but not spheres.

	25-09-2001 14:45									#5
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ok, you'r right, I just could not find the right word , thanks m8.

Anyway you all know what I mean ...

	25-09-2001 14:51									#6
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Well the technical term used in the game is "Doughnut" (or is it "Donut").

	25-09-2001 14:57									#7
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Time to start a Civ4 wishlist.
#1 Playing on a globe!

	25-09-2001 19:40									#8
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quote: Originally posted by Ribannah Time to start a Civ4 wishlist. #1 Playing on a globe!

Yeah, but please do not add the donut world they had in ctp, this means you go a little north to northpole and then your unit is placed on the southpole...that was way bad...but a globe would be very cool to have

	25-09-2001 20:13									#9
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They should give you a flat/donut/sphere option...all three have different tactics that could come into play.

	25-09-2001 23:27									#10
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quote: Originally posted by Big Crunch Well the technical term used in the game is "Doughnut" (or is it "Donut").

And that's the only way to connect the ends of the map as well!
Very humorous, especially if you are into math and the like.

I wonder what the repurcussions of radio communications are? You might be able to send communications across the donut hole by beaming them into space. And then of course there would the amusing problem of trying to orbit the world. Do you orbit it around the long donut or orbit through the hole? If orbit through the hole, gravity would be rather low since you would be attracted by the nearby donut across the hole. You'd only get a clear view of space if you orbitted around the donut's equator. An orbit across the pole (keep in mind the pole does not run through ANY land) might be very difficult. I'm not even going to consider tidal forces or weather.

Well, if we ever discover a donut planet, we must investigate it

Now I will never be able to look at a Civ map the same way!!!

	25-09-2001 23:32									#11
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quote: Originally posted by Triped They should give you a flat/donut/sphere option...all three have different tactics that could come into play.

The sphere program is difficult to reduce to a 2D grid. Look at Mercator projects, etc....they all distort.

However, an unfolded donut has perfect symmetry and no distortion. It's the ideal world for a game, if you can deal with the pain of thinking of it that way.

A ha! We create a buckyball type world with hexagonal tiles....that would work

	25-09-2001 23:33									#12
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the best map would be made of hexagons (6 sided), and have a true north-south wraparound.

	26-09-2001 00:35									#13
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I don't know if I liked the 'donut' in CTP; but I know I didn't like only being able to circumnavigate the world by going East-West and not North-South, that was very unrealistic.

	26-09-2001 00:46									#14
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When I am on a donut-shaped planet, I like to travel NNE! That way, you get to see almost everything

	26-09-2001 00:54									#15
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Populous had a really cool world map (it was an actaul sphere, for those of you who haven't played it) The only real question is how to implement it in civ

	26-09-2001 00:56									#16
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The same goes for Black & White...RTS games on a sphere are a bit different from turn-based, however...

	26-09-2001 01:22									#17
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quote: Originally posted by Triped When I am on a donut-shaped planet, I like to travel NNE! That way, you get to see almost everything

And you aren't really guaranteed to get back exactly where you started anytime soon!

Darn it, I am a math geek. I thought it wasn't true, but the fact that that was insanely funny somehow causes me to think the converse.

Ut oh. I just said "converse".

	26-09-2001 01:36									#18
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i like the wrap around thing best, personally.

	26-09-2001 01:37									#19
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That's why you take the liberty of sending over GPS satellites first

	26-09-2001 01:47									#20
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The east-west wrap-around would be best described as a cylinder. It doesn't have a north or south pole but rather displaced arctic and antarctic circles as its north and south boundaries.

The east-west/north-south wrap around is technically called a toroid, although CTP calls it a doughnut. I prefer this topology as it prevents a civ from hiding near the boundary of a map. There are no boundaries so there's no geographic advantage.

	26-09-2001 03:44									#21
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Donut world!!

"Sir, we're nearing the north pole now, it should be just over that rise...
*whoa*
Um, Sir, theres a giant hole where the north pole should be, im stepping closer for a lo.... arghhh i slipped!!!"

5 minutes later...

"Sir, yes, im ok... ive come out of the hole, but all those constellations look different..."

	26-09-2001 07:21									#22
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More math geeks! I'm not alone!

Anyway....(excellent promotion for donut world, Skanky Burns!)...I've thought a bunch about map geometry and I concluded that there's no free lunch. Any map will have at least some of the problems already meantioned (civ hiding in corner, really strange ways of going around the world, explorers falling through central hole, etc...)

The best I've come up with is kinda like squid's bucky ball comment. (Bucky balls are made of hexagons _and_ pentagons, I'm pretty sure) If you take an icosohedron (sp?), which is sorta round, you can break it up into little triangles or (mostly) hexagons. You run into trouble at about 12 places where the "wrong" number of tiles meet at a point. Maybe you could put a lake there or something....

Anyway...like Ribannah said, this is Civ4 list material at this point.

Last edited by Dienstag on 26-09-2001 at 07:27

	26-09-2001 07:51									#23
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quote: Originally posted by Dienstag The best I've come up with is kinda like squid's bucky ball comment. (Bucky balls are made of hexagons _and_ pentagons, I'm pretty sure) If you take an icosohedron (sp?), which is sorta round, you can break it up into little triangles or (mostly) hexagons. You run into trouble at about 12 places where the "wrong" number of tiles meet at a point. Maybe you could put a lake there or something....

It is exactly 12. Think of a dodecahedron with hexagons inserted between the pentagons. If you insert a sufficiently large number of hexagons, the resulting solid resembles an icosahedron. The icosahedron has 12 vertices, each of which is surrounded by five triangles.

Therefore, an icosahedral world made up of an arbitrarily large number of hexagons and exactly 12 pentagons would be the best solution. It would also be fairly easy to program. The only flaws are the pentagons. Cities that have a pentagon within their radius have fewer tiles to work.

	26-09-2001 08:32									#24
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What if the map was actually round? IMO it can be done by making it possible to center screen on anywhere in the planet - even on north poles. In the current system going around the globe near the north pole takes the same time as in the equator, which is wrong.
And all it takes is some 3D perception skill...

EDIT: When I was talking about "going around the globe", I ment going around the axel of the globe ...

Last edited by aaglo on 26-09-2001 at 16:02

	26-09-2001 10:30									#25
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It seems very doubtfull that civ3 will only have the east-west connection since I find that that gives a civ a strategic advantage if you are up north or south and not near the equator since that is one less likely side to get attacked from.

And just to set the record straight: the Earth is not round, but flattened at the poles, that's why airlines like polar routes to the Far East (being a pilot I had to study this stuff).

I'll allready be happy if in civ3 I get the option to cross the northpole and not bump into a black wall of dark matter even if it's like in CTP, because it would take a long time to make a realistic earth shaped model fit for gameplay.

Maybe a challenge for all you mod-makers out there?

	26-09-2001 10:53									#26
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Well, somebody had to say that earth isn't round. Actually it is a geoid, bit like perry-shaped (bumps south from equator).

	26-09-2001 14:17									#27
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Donuts are sweet pastries (preferably filled with jelly . The shape of a donut is a 'torus'.

	26-09-2001 15:35									#28
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quote: Originally posted by UberKruX the best map would be made of hexagons (6 sided), and have a true north-south wraparound.

Uber, that is what I'm working on in my Civ-like game... I'm divided up the world into sections that look like this...

*
**
* *
* *
**
*

The above is supposed to look like this ()

And using DirectX 8.0 SDK, I've created a sphere that layers the sections like wallpaper across the wireframe. The map is a true sphere. Right now I'm working on a model to generate terrain based on realistic climate and weather patterns. The map editor will allow the player to draw the landforms (elevations) if they wish, then they can select the level of moisture, age of the planet, and amount of sunlight, and the terrain types are automatically generated.

Unfortunately, I don't work for Firaxis, so you won't see this in Civ 4. Hmmm maybe I could license and sell the model to them.

	26-09-2001 15:36									#29
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quote: Originally posted by JellyDonut Donuts are sweet pastries (preferably filled with jelly . The shape of a donut is a 'torus'.

And you would be correct Mr. JellyTorus.

	26-09-2001 15:51									#30
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Putting JELLY in DONUTS!!! thats sick, you want to put JAM in DOUGHNUTS...