25-09-2001 23:20									#1
	Monarchy or Republic Put an end to popups!

I saw it asked elsewhere, so I'll ask here.
What government path do you take?

"When I think back on all the crap I learned in "Civ School", it's a wonder I can think at all".

The general perception seems to be to beat street for Monarchy.
There are strategies nestled away in the Great Library of Apolyton, that talk of the first 20, or whatever the number is, advances one should strive for.
In a perfect illustration of, "If someone takes the time to write it, it must be true", people go to Monarchy.

I think it's much better to go for Republic first.
I'll give reasons, if necessary, later.

I'm just curious about what you think.

	25-09-2001 23:47									#2
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I always go for monarcy asap; the food advantage over despotism is marked, and republic takes longer to get. Also I feel a period of monarchy is advantageous before republic because of the support costs. I switch to republic when the trade advantage outweighs the extra support costs.

	25-09-2001 23:49									#3
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I'm replying not because I know the answer, but I was also thinking about it.
The true answer should be "depends".
In a duel, go for Monarchy.
In the long run, go for Republic.

In 1x product deity, I generally regret to go for Republic directly.
For 2x, I want to say go Republic, but not sure. If you can make "WLOPD", then go for it.

	26-09-2001 01:19									#4
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the answer lies in what your land and or hut situation is.... as per usual......

	26-09-2001 14:38									#5
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I have to agree with War... it really depends on the situation you find yourself in a game... how many players, what rules...

In most games, I do race to Monarchy... but I mostly play Deity games on small worlds with double production. You need to take as much land as quickly as possible, and you will probably get into a fight or two

	26-09-2001 16:46									#6
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Like the Paul Simon reference, Sloww, but to get to the question:

In the last few games we played, 2x1x King on medium world, you seemed to have a slight edge with republic, while I had larger empires with more wonders, but as AD approached, I was scrambling to get Republic.

In 1x1x games, I think Monarchy is the way to go, and in 2x (unless, as Ming said, it's a small world) go Republic.

	26-09-2001 17:27									#7
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If by duels, you mean get horses and launch a blitz with no intent of anything resembling building a Civilization, that's not Civ to me.

I find that going to Republic opens more possibilities, in almost any situation.
Certainly one has to adapt to the existing game.

	26-09-2001 17:36									#8
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Elephant instead of horse. Or sometimes archers in 2X games.

	26-09-2001 22:13									#9
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i usually go for monarchy first, except for those times when i try to use oedo years. by the time i remember to revolt i have republic....

	26-09-2001 23:23									#10
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Anything with 1x movement you should go republic. If it's deity you'll obviously have to go monarchy. On 2x2x it's best to go monarchy unless you're on a big map, then go republic as well. The only time I go monarchy is on 2x2x small map duels.

	27-09-2001 01:07									#11
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I started to say except for Deity, but didn't; because I decided yes, even Deity.
As long as you can produce settlers to keep your population down, and adjust luxuries if required, even Deity would probably be ok.
Going Republic you don't study Burial, so expand.

I've just always been so locked in to Monarchy is the way it's supposed to be, that I never until recently tried a straight shot to Republic.
Going Republic you are put nearer to other advances quicker.

As I said, I'm just bouncing this off you all.

	27-09-2001 02:44									#12
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You have no choice but to go monarchy on Deity. By the time you reach 7 cities or so the riot factor will kick in and your cities will start getting mad at size 1 or even -1 or lower.

	27-09-2001 07:26									#13
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So if it comes to that point, and not to Republic yet, you take on Burial?
By that time you would be just as close, assuming you hit no huts that give you advances that screw you all up.

Which is another question.
When to hit huts.

	27-09-2001 13:23									#14
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Just to clarify slowwhand, you aim straight for republic even in deity games with 1x1x? I have to agree with enigmaticgod I have always felt a period of monarchy to be necessary in deity games, at least with 1x1x. It's great that you are questioning received wisdom though, you are certainly making me think.

	27-09-2001 16:34									#15
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i like to take the path to monarchy as a safety net just in case huts screw me....... like EG stated..... if you take too long on deity to get a better govt....or you expand like a demon you run the risk of rioting....happens to me almost every game that i don't get at least one good trade special no matter what path i take

	27-09-2001 16:51									#16
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I agree with EG and War4. Deity means you have to go to Monarchy first if you're a quick expander.


On the other hut note. I've been having better luck with huts not screwing up the path to Monarchy as much since I've switched to burial first then alpha from alpha first then burial. That warrior code from the first hut does not make me swear anymore.


RAH

	27-09-2001 18:22									#17
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Warrior Code is a good example, and Masonry is another that seems to pop up.

I want to hit those huts immediately, in hopes of a Nomad, but I'm becoming tempted to not take until I reach the new government.

	27-09-2001 18:24									#18
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BTW, I appreciate the opportunity to express a different line of thought, without being called a dumb ass over it.

Thanks, all.

	27-09-2001 18:42									#19
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand Warrior Code is a good example, and Masonry is another that seems to pop up. I want to hit those huts immediately, in hopes of a Nomad, but I'm becoming tempted to not take until I reach the new government.

I guess I didn't express the concept well enough.

If I get warrior code from a hut then i can usually go burial/alpha/code/monarchy. So getting warrior code actually helps be get to monarchy faster. I used to go alpha/burial/other/code/monarchy, and any hut tech would really screw it up. (unless it was the tech i was researching)

I'm sure EG will say, GOD, I thought everyone knew that, but I must be stupid because I didn't. Old habits die hard.

Rich

	27-09-2001 18:49									#20
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I have been successfull going after either one. It just depends on what is your overall strategy, and the settings and rules of the game.
Here is some thoughts:
it is extremely hard to go for republic 1st on 1* deity games (unless you have a couple cities near gold ressources).
with 2* prod and at least a medium map go for rep otherwise you will fall behind the WLTPDing republics
if you plan on attacking early or think you will be attacked early go for monarchy

Other than that you can make a case for either 1

	29-09-2001 06:02									#21
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I have gotten to the point where I want to get horse first (for exploring), then go straight to monarchy at deity level, where I mostly play. I'm sure there are valid reasons to go straight to republic, but I can't manage the happiness factors and the support costs when I try that. (grrr) I am no good at all at building the really early Wonders (like HG).

Lately, I've been finding, but not tipping, the huts until I get into monarchy. Monarchy helps so much that I really hate to delay it even a few turns and I *never* seem to gain monarchy from a hut. At least one certainly can't count on it, (that I know of). I go tip the huts all at once after monarchy and suffer the tech rate loss for the gain of the found gold and techs while *in* monarchy. The penalty seems less.

	29-09-2001 08:00									#22
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Generally, I play 2x1x games. I've just started experimenting with Republic. In general, based on the opinions I've read here, racing to Monarchy seemed to be the consensus. From there I used to go for Communism or straight to Democracy. In 2x production though, you can still produce enough to expand quickly even while in Republic, and the trade and growth benefits are nice. I've only gone straight to republic a couple times in Multi-Player, but in both games I was doing pretty well before everyone quit.

	29-09-2001 10:02									#23
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The only question is happiness.
I believe I can get to Republic as quickly as I can Monarchy, and the difference is substantial.
Then get Burial if you need to.

I know. I'm in the minority.
That either makes me a slow, or smart.
They thought Einstein was slow.

	29-09-2001 20:33									#24
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quote: Originally posted by SlowwHand They thought Einstein was slow.

Explain quantum mechanics and the theroy of relativity.

	30-09-2001 18:38									#25
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quote: Originally posted by Chris 62 Explain quantum mechanics and the theroy of relativity.

QUANTUM MECHANICS - "Quantum" is the combined word form of "QUANTity of wampUM, so "quantum" is "a large amount of money". That is what mechanics get for working on our overly-complex automobiles.

THEORY OF RELATIVITY - Any large family will average out to normality. So, the more desirable the person you choose to marry, the more likely it is that he or she will bring along a whole batch of weirder-than-average relatives to be your in-laws.

	30-09-2001 19:23									#26
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See, it's logical.

Coming up with the theory was tough, but once it's brought to light, it's easily understood.

Kind of like going to Republic rather than Monarchy.

	01-10-2001 06:16									#27
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where you start on the map makes abig difference as well.....if i am in a corner i will go republic........ if i am in the middle and expecting people to come towards me.....you need to go monarchy .....this allows for troops to defend with.....or at the very least to block invaders.......

	01-10-2001 10:17									#28
	Republic was best for me... Put an end to popups!

Ever since I played Civ 1 I preferred to go Despotism/Republic/Democ.

Then I started MP in 1999 and everyone said go Monarchy, blah blah.

Even at Deity level I went Rep first but then I started mucking around with Monarchy and even did it at King level. Then I was told that was stupid - always go Rep at King level. All this experimenting has been interesting but it got me out of the rhythm of my natural game. I really like Deity 1x1x even more now.

I think I'll stick to Rep first as my default unless my start and the map dictate otherwise.

	01-10-2001 12:08									#29
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Assuming your not playing in a duel and a map of all mountains... in any 2x game republic is the best. monarchy doesn't even come close, you can get huge amounts of trade and cash with caravans. The others will still be researching republic when you go into democracy. in 1x 1x Monarchy is best on diety, because you can crank out caravans at a VERY fast rate and build wonders. And then as soon as you get republic switch asap. As for king go straight for republic, the science and cash bonus far outweighs any production losses from going to republic. And besides all that extra cash will allow you to rush buy anything you want.

	01-10-2001 21:55									#30
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Technology is not the reason to go republic first. Technology is easily stolen by someone in monarchy and really isn't all that big of an advantage. Especially since if you try to go all out science and economy you're going to get over run by units. The real reason you go Republic is because it allows you to raise your tax rate to 80% on top of the added trade production. This in turn allows you to buy wonders. When I play 1x1x King duels, I don't go for a tech lead. I go for a city and wonder lead. Obviously you want to get things like feudalism and Monotheism first to insure that you get those wonders. I max out my science until I get trade and Pottery, then I max out my tax until I have HG built. Then I max out my science again until I get Feudalism and Michelangelo's chapel. Then max out my tax again. I do it in monarchy too, just not to the same effect. I almost always end up getting every single wonder in my games. A monarchy will always beat a republic if they have more cities and more units.