29-09-2001 04:25									#31
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Jeem,

I always enjoy a fine remark or comment, but let face it either you didn't read my post or you just got mad with my use of words (the brain comment - which I apologize for if anyone got insulted)

First of all:

quote: Originally posted by Jeem Not so Knowhow. What you mean is if you play double blind then the WP becomes more of a necessity

YES exactly what I meant DOUBLE-BLIND which incidently I mention in my original post.

quote: I'd like to know how you can get the WP built, a colony pod and former built and a borehole drilled by 2120 also. If you play tech stag&double blind you might not even get Cent Eco before then. Fav SP's obviously just depend on your preffered type of game.

I also mention that there should be a mineral or energy bonus nearby, so with either one of them you get mineral or cash for rushbuild. So 2-3 formers shouldn't be any problem. First you do the regular thing - forrest work them and get the mineral from there. Explore for AAs or more cash, you always get something unless you are very unlucky then who cares about SPs you're busy staying alive. We're talking about building SPs which one is most important to build for the game and I say WP if (and did write if the last time also) you have mineral and/or energy bouns nearby (or build a base next to one also works). And also there is a reason why I wrote 2120-30 meaning as SOON as 2120 if the enviroment is to satisfaction. So with the conditions you gave maybe it would have to take as long as to 2130 to build all of it which is still A HOLE LOT sooner than eco eng.

	29-09-2001 05:08									#32
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quote: By Blake:My other preffered style is 'uber-powerfull pacifist builder" where I try to snag all the SP's, but never go on the offensive.

I play that way almost all the time against the AI now, and it makes for some pretty good and unusual games. The trick is to keep your faction powerful but not too powerful or everyone else will hate you. This usually means growth can be secondary (I'm sure high population makes the AI hate you more than anything else).

***

This was my latest game, which I lost badly in the next few turns (the Hive was just too powerful, and I found myself fighting on two fronts then sunspot activity stopped diplomacy etc.) I could have won the overall election but that's too easy with PK/EG, so I thought I'd try something different.

Note that I don't use crawlers either (too easy), and although the WP would have been massive for me in this game, it wouldn't have helped with the Hive Shard Marines that were ripping my bases to shreds all game. I've never seen the Hive so overwhelming like they are here...

	29-09-2001 05:26									#33
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quote: Originally posted by knowhow2 Jeem, I always enjoy a fine remark or comment, but let face it either you didn't read my post or you just got mad with my use of words (the brain comment - which I apologize for if anyone got insulted)

Well your choice of words were rather 'uncouth' if you like, but being a Scotsman I couldn't care less.

quote: First of all: YES exactly what I meant DOUBLE-BLIND which incidently I mention in my original post.

Yep. How does that make the WP the best early SP and anyone who can't see it must be 'brainless' exactly?

quote: I also mention that there should be a mineral or energy bonus nearby, so with either one of them you get mineral or cash for rushbuild. So 2-3 formers shouldn't be any problem. First you do the regular thing - forrest work them and get the mineral from there. Explore for AAs or more cash, you always get something unless you are very unlucky then who cares about SPs you're busy staying alive. We're talking about building SPs which one is most important to build for the game and I say WP if (and did write if the last time also) you have mineral and/or energy bouns nearby (or build a base next to one also works). And also there is a reason why I wrote 2120-30 meaning as SOON as 2120 if the enviroment is to satisfaction. So with the conditions you gave maybe it would have to take as long as to 2130 to build all of it which is still A HOLE LOT sooner than eco eng.

Yer arse. There's no reason why you can't get to Adv Eco Eng before 2250 even on double blind and there is simply no chance of getting your 2120 10 mineral setup with unless you start next to the Borehole Cluster. Even then you need the tech to fully utilise the resources. At any rate, I don't believe that was the point of your 'brainless non-WP players' rant. For the build game the WP works sometimes and not others. The HGP always works regarless of whatever game you play and therefore is the 'thinking man's' SP. Lol.

	29-09-2001 06:31									#34
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Jeem, I looked at your game. I can see it would be hard for a player who does less terraforming than the AI to appreciate the WP

quote: There's no reason why you can't get to Adv Eco Eng before 2250 even on double blind and there is simply no chance of getting your 2120 10 mineral setup with unless you start next to the Borehole Cluster.

I once finished the WP at 2115 in a MP game (the HQ starts larger), it's amazing the luck you can get with Alien Artifacts. If I so cared I could have had 3 formers ready to drill a borehole by 2120.

	29-09-2001 07:24									#35
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quote: Originally posted by Blake Jeem, I looked at your game. I can see it would be hard for a player who does less terraforming than the AI to appreciate the WP

That being my point Blake. I had already 'won' the game through Supreme Leader, and terraforming mattered not a jot - even on that rather large continent (which I still managed to fill up fairly effectively, and the late bases were making a real contribution to my game also). No crawlers either! It can be done, in other words. Without the unfortunate solar flares I'd have probably won that game through conquest before 2450. I was already at the stage where I could throw up sky hydro labs faster than most factions could terraform, and I had the cloning vats to make my pop go higher than is believable. I didn't need mass terraforming in the early game, and I needed it less at this stage of the game. Basically I had decided to go for one of the 'other' victories and ended up getting smacked by the Hive instead.

quote: I once finished the WP at 2115 in a MP game (the HQ starts larger), it's amazing the luck you can get with Alien Artifacts. If I so cared I could have had 3 formers ready to drill a borehole by 2120.

I'm not saying it's impossible, just not very likely. I'd say there's a much higher chance of getting to Eco Eng not long after the WP faction gets to Ind Auto and that was my original point.

	29-09-2001 07:55									#36
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I find The Human Genome, The Command Nexus, The Empath Guild, and The Planetary Transit System to all be more important than the Weather Paradigm.

*waiting for the bombs to fall*

	29-09-2001 09:17									#37
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YOU WHAT?!!? LOL

Nahhh, kiddin' bud.....of course. And that's the beauty of the game. Always more than one way to skin a cat.

All the views posted here to date are valid, for the particular style of game these players run.

My personal preference runs toward terraforming. I like it. I do a lot of it...so, the WP is of great value to me, cos I can hurry up with it!

If I played a conquest-oriented game, I can tell you without a doubt that the WP would not be quite so high on my list, trading it in preference for the CN, and, in all liklihood the Maritime Control Center.

If I played Lal, I'd prolly not see as much use for the HGP as I normally do (and I DO like snagging that project!).

As Zak (well....anybody really), I'm inclined to gravitate toward the VW.

Depends on how I wanna go about skinnin' the ol' cat, but mostly, it's via terraforming, cos I like making pretty Empires...lol


-=Vel=-

	29-09-2001 14:32									#38
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Sorry to go OT - but where exactly are you from Jeem? My location field may be obfuscated (good word ), but when not at uni I live in Troon, so I know the region.

	29-09-2001 15:29									#39
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I never actually got why the Planetary Transit System is considered so important by many players. Rationale:

1. By the time it is built, most of your bases will probably be larger than size 3 (particularly if you're using Democracy), so the drone control effect is irrelevant.

2. In my games it usually gets built around the beginning of the midgame, when I stop founding cities and start building up my economy and infrastructure. (I like building infrastructure, more so than terraforming, because it always makes me uneasy if it seems like my citizens are living in cardboard boxes. May sound funny coming out of the mouth of someone who uses Thought Control, but there it is. )

On the other hand, new cities starting at size 3 will get off the ground faster than new cities with only one worker. So that's good. I guess it is a pretty useful project, just not so much for me. And that's what this discussion is all about!

I forgot the Nano Factory and the Living Refinery! If you use Power, the Refinery might not be so important, but I never use Power, so I actually need it. The Nano Factory, for me, is convenient but not crucial.

	29-09-2001 16:12									#40
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No doubt some slimey ICS'er will explain how the PTS can be (ab)used to great effect.

It also has applications with pod-booming, but seems like is too much of an exploit for me to use.

	29-09-2001 16:47									#41
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Chowlett - I'm in Auchinleck and not too happy about it. I see you play Diablo2 and I've just recently got into that also. In my case it's just filling up time until civ3 and moo3 are out. If you fancy an email game of SMAC or SMACX then just mail me with the details (any setup but at least Librarian level please). Not that you'll get much of a challenge from me...

On Topic :- I'm beginning to think the CN is even more vital than the HGP, esp at Thinker level. Really, the effects of morale cannot be understated even as a builder player. That's one SP I never regret building. If playing an aggressive game it must be the early SP of choice surely?

	29-09-2001 22:48									#42
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The SPs I care about mostly depend on my mood at the moment

If I want a relaxed, easy to pull off win, the WP is not important at all - I just have my formers plant forests, and when that's done, build sensors and roads and the occasional borehole. WP does nothing except get them out of work sooner. However, I'm not saying that this is a good meathod at all. The only reason I use it is it doesn't take much thinking

In games such as these, I love projects like HGP and VW, as I have very few specialists. I just have everyone work forests, and I build very few crawlers. I build about 10 bases only, and they stay very small until tree farms, but then (as University) I can boom them to 14 quickly (Demo/Planned/Creche)

However, lately I've been trying "better" (but by no means the "best") methods...build a few forests at the beginning and let them expend, then start building farms near my bases. As soon as I get WP (VERY important to me in this meathod), I start building Condensors on those farms. I noticed that Condenser+Farm will produce 4 nutrients even before restrictions are raised! I also start some boreholes for later. Until Environmental Engineering, I just crawl these condensors, and then everyone can still work forests and still pump out 5-6 extra food. With Demo/Planned/Creche, then get big fast! Once Environmental Engineering is researched, hopefully some boreholes are finished. I'll also try to crawl mines now (4 minerals) to get some bases up to more than 20 minerals (I need a pop FAST, tree farms next tech!). The 20 minerals produces no eco damage after the initial pop or two, and the widescale tree farm building.

With this meathod, I can also use lots of specialists. I tried this once with the Hive - it was really fun! Even Yang can make tons of cash/tech with tons of Technitions/Librarians (haven't even reached engineers yet in that game)

In these games, WP is very important. VW and HGP take a back seat, as with over half my population as specialists, there's very little room for drones. IF I had SMAX, I think that PEG would be useful (not exactly sure what it does - is it an Energy Back at each base?), as I can't develope much infrastructure when I'm worried about building tons of formers and crawlers and tree farms and hybrid forests and hab complexes.

In all games, PTS is useful, even though I've finished most of my Colony Pod-ing. When I get Fusion Power, 2 things happen - I can start building Fusion Penetrator Colony Pods (I have Air Power by then, from probing Hive or other meathods ), and I can change all the specialists to Engineers. Then, I'll get a bunch more cash to Hurry the early infrastructer of these new bases, and can expand quickly.

Z