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Mr. President
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The leaves that are green turn to brown
Jul 2001
time: 15:15
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I know this is a pretty broad topic, but I thought it might be interesting to get some ideas on which projects people find important for their styles of play. I'll get the ball rolling. Here, in no particular order, are the projects I've absolutely gotta have (usually as Pirates or Gaians, sometimes Morganites or even Spartans, with social engineering choices Democracy, Free Market/Green [when I'm Gaians  ], Knowledge, Thought Control):
1. Virtual World. Quite a bit of help for Free Marketeers. Its effects are annoyingly taken into account before pacifism; nonetheless, it can sometimes make the difference between continuous drone riots and merely annoying drone riots. Plus it has a cool video.
2. The Ascetic Virtues. As above, except more so. It doesn't sound like it, but -4 Police is actually infinitely better than -5.
3. Command Nexus/Maritime Control Center/Cyborg Factory/Cloudbase Academy. These are essentially the same project: they give very important facilities to every city. I always want an army and without these, I need to spend all that much more time building the relevant facilities. Plus they all have good videos.
4. The Cloning Vats. I like Thought Control. Sure, Eudaimonia and Cybernetic are cool too, but who would pass up the chance to be Big Brother? Without this, Thought Control bankrupts me.
5. The Telepathic Matrix. The ultimate Free Market wonder drug.
6. The Neural Amplifier and the Dream Twister. These make Psi combat tolerable for Free Marketeers. When I play Deirdre, I build these, stick Psi Attack and Psi Defense on all my units, and go nuts.
Is ten projects too many to choose? I think there are about forty in total. Nonetheless, I hope that's not overloading.
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:15
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Some random thoughts:
Which ones are must haves? Extremely valuable? important? - this will depend on your type of game, faction and playing style. Builders (and conqerors too) love the multi-base SPs, especially those that give the +2 morale boosts !!
In Multiplay?
The Empath Guild confers such an advantage that the base harboring it will often be the first one another player attacks.
If ICS'ing?
Planetary Transit System and Cloning Vats
Researching?
Supercollider, Theory of Everything and Network Backbone
Multi-base benefits?
Citizens' Defense Force; Cloudbase Academy; Command Nexus; Cyborg Factory; Maritime Control Center; Planetary Energy Grid; Singularity Inductor; Virtual World
Drone Control?
Clinical Immortality (extra talent per base)
Human Genome Project (same)
Longevity Vaccine (except if running FM)
PTS (for bases with 3 or less pop)
Telepathic matrix (drones never riot)
Virtual World (reduce drones by 2 per base - plus free holotheater and 50% PSI bonus)
Then there are the psi-related ones for native wildlife warfare, plus the ecology/environmental ones.
None are unimportant, and what might be relatively useless for, say, the Pirates or Hive might be just the ticket for the Gains or Morgan (eg, the Hive start with the CDF - value of the MCC to the Pirates is only inreased movement - they get the free Naval yard with the discovery of Doc Init)
I guess one could produce a matrix by faction and game type, of strongest to weakest SP - even that, though would be somewhat subjective as changing tactics in mid game (especially in Multiplayer) might cause you to throw the book out of the window.
Just some thoughts early on a Wednesday morning ......
Googlie
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:15
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Excellent outline, Brother Googlie!
Such a good outline, in fact, that I'll not even try to compete with it. Instead, I'll head off into a different direction and see where it goes.
Specifically, I'm looking at projects that would tend to transcend playing styles, or provide benefits not easily obtainable by other means.
The first, biggest project for me then, would be the WP. There's not much else that will speed your terraforming times, and no matter what your gaming style, faster terraforming is better than slower terraforming. This one's a must have for me!
After that, mark me down for the Virtual World. One facility = two purposes AND you don't have to pay that hateful 3ec maintenance on holos. Other than this project, there's simply no way you can avoid those maintenance costs.
Cloudbase Academy - Not only do you get extra movement for your aircraft, but you also get a free facility AND one that helps you get the most bang for your satellite buck. Best, most overpowered project in the whole game. (in the same category, but of slightly lesser importance to me would be all the other projects that provide maintenance free facilities--and generally morale bonuses, but I would not classify these as must-haves....they're good, but if you have a significant tech lead, then the morale bonuses are relatively less important than if you're at even tech with your enemy).
HSA: Complete drone protection (well....nearly complete in the SMAX world). Sign me up!
PTS: Mostly for denial, but the early game kick in population does nice things for speed.
ALL of the research boosters! (my whole game revolves around getting tech fast....these are crucial, both from a denial standpoint, and to widen the gap!)
Other than that, I don't cry if I miss the rest.
-=Vel=-
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Dimension
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Columbus OH
Feb 2001
time: 00:15
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There are always the obvious projects everybody likes. WP, VW, HGP have to be high on everybody's favorite list since the terraforming and drone control gives you a huge amount of resources for developing fast in the early game. Otherwise you'd have more doctors allocated, so you'd have less minerals, and the minerals you did have would always be going towards drone control facilities and more formers, since you'd need twice as much.
Then of course everybody wants all the free facilities projects. Many people wouldn't imagine spending the minerals to build a hologram theater, command center, naval yard, aerospace complex, bioenhancement center, or energy bank when these projects are available.
The fun projects that are really my favorites, though, are the ones that cause a major turning point in the game.
MMI is pretty much the "I win" point of most games I play. Typically, with say 12 bases, it'll be:
year 1 - discover MMI
year 2 - build cloudbase, cyborg factory, drop rovers
year 3 - build 12 impact choppers
year 4 - upgrade to 12 trained missile choppers, build more impact choppers, kill everybody
But I guess Cloudbase Academy and Cyborg Factory are just the same free facility projects that everybody already likes.
For your average builder. I'm sure Supercollider, Theory of Everything, and Network Backbone are pretty fun, as you fly through the techs to transcend.
Last game I played, I was the Data Angels, and now I think The Xenoempathy Dome is my new favorite project. The project is great for anybody who likes to shift to a momentum style in the middle game, but the fungus movement is best for people who use probe teams very aggressively. There's a lot of fungus on even a normal map, and you can just about get from one end of any continent to the other on just fungus and road squares. With the Angels, it's really easy to be making elite probe teams, which means they can go NINE SPACES, not to mention the fact that they're in fungus so nobody can see them coming if it actually does take two turns to get somewhere. It's also great for your ships, since your 9-move elite spy cruisers still have trouble with fungus.
My probe teams were doing so well last game that just a few turns after I got the Xeno Dome, I had all of everybody's tech, the Drones & Spartans had switched to fundy, and I was draining everybody's energy reserves multiple times each turn because I was out of other things to do.
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Jeem
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Ayrshire, Scotland
Sep 2001
time: 05:15
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In MP games, there are a few Projects that stick out like a sore thumb. I agree that the Empath Guild is pretty potent, but if you chase after that then you get to Ind Auto a bit later...
I never bother with the WP. My regular opponent goes after it like it's the greatest thing ever and I'm more than happy with the HGP in it's place. I take great delight in the 'DRONE RIOTS' notice everytime he sits down. The WP is overrated because social engineering and creche's will get you to size 7 bases faster than any quick terraforming abilities. You still clear fungus at the same speed and really I wonder what all the fuss is about. When your bases reach max population and most of them are unhappy, you'll be wishing you'd went for the HGP instead.
Virtual World - seems to be a major favourite of the AI. When Zakharov gets it the University can go into overdrive but mostly I find myself switching from it (too expensive early on) to the Command Nexus. Of all the 'early' Projects, the HGP is the best (IMO).
Mid-game, the HSA is just daft and I'm glad they weakened it with SMACX. I'll tend to chase after the 'green' projects more here though, and the Neural Amp is a must if you are playing Gaians. It's too good to miss and you simply cannot afford your enemies getting it. Ditto the Dream Twister in the mid-late game. Demon Locust Boils with the Twister are nasty as hell - it's how I win most games with the Gaians.
Come to think of it, there are hardly any Special Projects I don't really want. I've seen some players give up because they 'missed out' on a Project that their whole game relied on. As far as the point on everyone attacking the builder of the Empath Guild goes, I'd say that was a bit OTT. The council votes are what I want it for (the spying is a bonus), but the Peacekeepers get that anyway. Infiltrating Datalinks only costs a Probe Team and a transport. If an election is called then just make sure you vote against the player who has it! I don't see any problem with the Empath Guild except paranoia.
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freshman
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Jeem,
couldn't agree with you more about being able to get along just fine without any of the Secret Projects. I agree the WP is over-rated - it sure didn't vastly improve my second game (I've only played two OCC games).
With OCC, there are some differences. I think the only 3 that come to mind are Merchant Exchange, Supercollider and TOE. The rest I can pass on. Universal Translator saves a few turns of research - big deal (and who's discovered a load of artifacts anyway?). SPs which provide facilities to all bases just aren't as handy, well, because you only have one base anyway - might as well build it (who cares about the extra maintenance). I find facilities more useful than most SPs in OCC: example Hybrid Forests especially for growing your city to max pop and reaping the energy benefits of forests, and the Fusion Lab for both money and labs! A few denial projects might be Cloning Vats, PTS, and HSA (in SMAC OCC when probing is sometimes your only defence). Has anybody tried a OCC 2-SP ascent win (only build Voice/Ascent) ?
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:15
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I think the main difference in opinion about the WP stems from playing style.
For me, I focus on early game minerals almost exclusively....the only time I'm worried about base growth is between size 1 and 2, and with that early game focus on minerals, the WP is crucial. I have never been able to terraform faster than I could crank out crawlers, even with the WP. Invariably, my early crawlers spend at least a few turns pulling minerals from unworked tiles until the formers can catch up.
True, those who pay more attention to population growth in existing bases WILL have more pop than me (and prolly a higher score because of it), but my preferred factions can all pop boom, so once I have a ton of minerals, I can boom my bases to max, blowing past the competition, size-wise. The exception here is Morgan, and with his smaller bases, again, I'm not worried too much about population growth, cos I'll hit the max limit soon enough as it is.
-=Vel=-
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freshman
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I too focus on mineral production in the beginning - which means forests. I find that 2 formers (without WP) can more than keep up planting forests, as well as have them naturally expand, with my population growth. That's all that matters to me. In fact, even before the time I'm ready to pop-boom, I've pretty much got my whole city region roaded, forested or farmed (use farms before Tree-Farm - afterwards, everything is forest). Boreholes, in my opinion, can't be exploited right away because of mineral/energy restrictions anyway. Drilling rivers should only be a side note in terraforming. Seems to me like these can wait. Though a condensor on a nutrient square does help in pop-booming, I have to admit. Maybe Vel's right that playstyle has colored my opinion on the WP, but I haven't yet found a playstyle that has geared me towards it. (Granted if I did play blind research I might think twice!)
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RedFred
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Vancouver
Jun 1999
time: 21:15
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Most of the good points have already been made, either in this thread or others like it. Nevertheless, I have a few comments.
Many of the best SPs are in the first half dozen that become available at the start of the tech tree. Your choices among those SPs will reflect your playing style. For example, take the WP. I tend toward quick easy terraforms like roads, forests, and the occasional mine and early game farm. My energy parks don't usually get up to speed until a century in. So the WP is less important to me that to someone who boreholes, raises land and uses condensers extensively.
The other thing about those early SPs is that they improve your game early on. This improvement tends to magnify over time. So although the HGP does even less than Clinical Immortality, the drone fighting aspect of CI only works for you for a tiny part of the game. But the HGP can delay the need for rec commons which can speed up your early expansion a great deal. So it is one of my favourites.
Later on in the game it is hard to beat the Cloudbase Academy. Along with all the great benefits mentioned by others above, there is a more subtle benefit. For my particular single player game settings and skill level, it is a great benchmark as to whether I will have a good transcendance time. If I can beat the Foreman, who builds it in 2216 IIRC, I know I have a pretty good game going.
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vitamin j
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I have to weigh in for the Weather Paradigm here. I play what I guess most would call a hardcore builder's game, so it fits with my priorities. Enough cannot be said about faster boreholes and condensors. As far as restrictions go, I'd rather have that borehole ready to go asap, instead of waiting to even be able to start one! Plus, as you expand, every square, worked or crawled, will be ready that much faster, for the whole game. Can you say "turn advantage"?
The HGP I like: early stability, easier golden age, immunity to Prometheus epidemic...
As far as the free-facility-projects, yes they are great. You can put minerals into facilities that multiply your energy output instead, getting the benefits sooner. But, with the exception of the Energy Grid, you may never need the benefits they provide.
I guess I'd have to go with the Virtual World as well. If you play random events, you should have a network node in every base anyway, and who wants to build and pay for all those Hologram Theaters?
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Velociryx
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of Candle'Bre
Apr 1999
time: 05:15
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Good points all around here, and I now see the principal difference between my style and Freshman's.
First, they are similar in terms of the early game mineral focus, but....
Where Freshman focuses primarily on forests (and that's not a bad plan, given the early game's restrictions, the fact that they expand on their own, etc.), he's quite right....formers can keep pace, with or without the WP.
However, the equation changes somewhat when you start building a goodish number of mines and boreholes before they'll actually "pay."
Whenever possible, I plop my ever-expanding number of crawlers onto those 2m producing mines--thus, I focus on coastal mines first and foremost--and when the mineral restrictions come off, I begin reaping the benefits of the extra production from that turn on. This often enables me to free up other crawlers at that base, and re-home them to bases with weaker production, spreading the benefits of all that advance-terraforming around the empire.
The faster terraforming means that, compared to my opponents, I can whip out a greater aggregate mineral suite faster than they, or, maintain pairity with them and build a far more extensive road/sensor net (whichever seems most important at the moment).
I also agree with the notion of advance-building those boreholes....soon as the mineral restrictions come off, you've got a tile producing 8 (0/6/2), and it improves from there as the last of the restrictions fall away.
But, as a huge proponent of forests in general, I can't say that I disagree with Freshman's approach. It's strong and solid, and under that approach, he's quite right. The WP isn't on the "gotta have" list.
-=Vel=-
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Jeem
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Ayrshire, Scotland
Sep 2001
time: 05:15
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I certainly wouldn't say I'm a forest fanatic, just that terraforming is not perhaps as vital as it seems. I only plant forests because they are quick, easy and miles better than arid terrain. The effort required for complete terraforming is often too much, and formers just die too easily for me. I suppose what I'm saying is that in MP games, I'd target the formers of any player who built the WP more than I usually would. Green players love that sort of ****, given that we can hide worms in fungus just waiting on easy kills...
The WP is like the EG in that respect. Many here have said that the builder of the EG tends to make themselves a target, and in my view the builder of the WP makes themselves an easier target. It's a project that is brilliant when you are left to fully exploit it's use, but not so good when you find yourself in a bad situation. I'd rate it 3rd after the HGP and CN in the very early game, and not once have I missed not having it. At best it'll get you to size 7 cities a little bit faster than most, but by the time you get to Ind Auto your opponents will probably be close to Eco.Eng anyway. You also have the problem of it all being washed away in a sea level raise, which happens to be a personal favourite of mine. The potency of the WP is easily counteracted by it's weaknesses, but if you let the WP builder go about their business unmolested then yes, you'll have a hard time against them.
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Ned
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of Aptos, CA
Oct 1999
time: 21:15
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Of the early techs, the HGP is the most important, in my view, as it allows early expansion and/or FM, easier or earlier pop booming through GA, and a reliable way to stay in the Wealth + GA cash cow from mid game on. There is no substitute. There are, however, ways to compensate for not having any of the other early techs.
From the midgame on, the most important tech is the HSA.
A close second is the Cloning Vats, not so much because of its pop booming effect, but because of its eliminating the negative effects of Power and Thought control.
If I play on a huge planet +, I also believe the Maritime Control Center is critical. It really helps in popping pods and bringing those artifacts home. It is also critical to naval superiority.
The Empath Guild is great, but infitration is a substitute.
Ned
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vitamin j
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On a related note, is there any (easy) way to disable the SPs all together? Has anyone done this before? I think this would make for a more interesting game, especially in MP, by leveling (sp?) the playing field a little bit...
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Googlie
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Commanding Officer, CRYPTEIA
Apr 1999
time: 21:15
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You can do it thru the scenario editor (scenario special rules, check the box "No secret projects can be built")
Start a game, open scenario editor and select the special rules menu item (you will see the map when you open the scenario - so force yourself not to look for the AI locations. Even better would be to play 20 turns or so, then do it, 'cos by that time you will have revealed the tiles around your start position and bases anyway)
After you have checked that box (and you can do all sorts of other things too - make pods never produce techs, or vehicles, etc, give the AI more energy, or techs, etc) you hit Scenario editor again to return to the game - this time with SP's disabled.
G.
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Jeem
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Ayrshire, Scotland
Sep 2001
time: 05:15
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Not so Knowhow. What you mean is if you play double blind then the WP becomes more of a necessity. Ditto making a lot of friends for tech swaps. See :- double blind, flat&arid, tech stag and the like don't actually make the game more difficult, it just makes the reliance on certain projects more critical and the winning faction will usually be the one who gets them built.
I'd like to know how you can get the WP built, a colony pod and former built and a borehole drilled by 2120 also. If you play tech stag&double blind you might not even get Cent Eco before then. Fav SP's obviously just depend on your preffered type of game.
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Chowlett
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of Candle'Bre
May 1999
time: 05:15
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Working up the game time and tech-tree...
I definitely want the HGP. That one more talent is one more base-square worked. Besides, I often play Zak (I recently started going random), so I need the talent pretty much straight away anyway.
WP - Not essential. I tend to be a forester - it gives a slowish start, but is as good as most things once tree farms and hybrids are in. Plus, it means that the odd mine/borehole can be dropped w/o ecological implications. I generally forest arid/moist flat/rolling, mine rocky, farm+solar rainy/rolling and call rainy/falt by situation. I'll often farm+enhance it, then crawl.
ME - very rarely do I build this, although I can see it's uses. I don't often need it, though.
VW - Pleasepleasepleaseplease. Especially as Zak, it gives holo's for no cost at all. And as I build Nodes anyway, it's damn good for the rest.
CN - more or less never. I Build and go tech-wise, and usually build only defenders early game.
PTS - by the time I hit it, I often have as many bases as I can get without going a-conquereing, so not needed.
CDF - Good, but I won't cry if I don't have it. I don't often go on the attack, and if I do my tech lead is usually good enough. On the defense - well, the AI is more fond of jets than troops.
EG - Again, I'd really quite like it. Saves time (I usually reach it before I've found everyone), and without Lal almost assures you governership.
PEG - Won't lose sleep over it.
NA - Pretty much a must have. Especially as both a denial and a wildlife defense tactic.
MCC - not needed. My navy is often the smallest on Planet
AV - good, but not necessary. Drone riots are quite rare, but the extra police unit I gain (my SE usually has POLICE at 0) is always useful.
SC - Nice, but I can live without it.
HSA - Give it to me now. Domai built it in my current game, along with the PDL. He's now the only AI not submissisive to me, and I can't give the others my tech. Grr.
LV - Usually reasonably useful, as I run planned or Green.
XD - So-so. The movement's all right, but as I've said, I tend to be a stay-at-home.
CyF - Yes. By this point I like the morale bonuses, and having them applied to all units is good.
CA - Yes - as others have said, ludicrously over-powered.
ToE - Like the SC, but I want one. If I get both, put them in the same base.
CV - unnecessary for me, but I usually take it anyway.
PM - Not really needed, my forests tend to keep ecodamage in check.
LR - Yes. By this stage I'm at war, and it offsets democracy nicely.
UT - really unneccessary, but if I can't get it there's something going wrong.
NF - Good for similar reasons al LR.
DT - Please. A lot of my troops are Native, particularly Locusts, and this works wonders against AAA.
NHT - Not really neccessary - my Probes are usually elite anyway, and Alg En isn't exactly expensive.
SE - Give CBA, not really necessary. Otherwise, I'll take it.
CI - Depends on what my victory condition is. Useful for a Diplo, but otherwise, not so.
TM - Not needed - by now, all drones are quelled anyway - but quite pleasing.
BMT - Not really needed. I'm cranking enough minerals anyway.
MH - Not a lot of fungus left, I can do without.
SI - Ditto for BMT
VoP/AtT - Well Duh.
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Blake
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Brainfallocatione
Oct 2000
time: 17:15
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quote:
from Mr Presidents original post
I know this is a pretty broad topic, but I thought it might be interesting to get some ideas on which projects people find important for their styles of play
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So feel free to voice support for whatever SP you really like .
As I've already mentioned the WP is essintial for some of my play styles, namely poor research builders in adverse conditions.
However playing under more standard conditions I pride myself on not requiring any SP at all, ofcourse the HGP and VW are droolishly good, especially HGP because it reduces drone control MM, and makes it easier to get GA's.
The HSA is one I'm very willing to lose, against AI, if you have a good sensor network and defensive probe teams, and stack your units you have nothing to fear from probe teams. It has obvious merits for denial, but I find it's twice as fun having to find ways to extract Zak's tech other than just outright stealing it.
The PEG is one I like a lot, because it is balanced but effective, and off on a tangent on the tech tree, making it fairly easy to get in challenge games. (Then again I mostly play SMAC)
The AV is another one I like, being fond of specialists, and all. I also find it quite balanced.
ME would be by far the least important for my play style, mainly because I refuse to crawl energy.
Ultimately, my preffered style of play is "for fun", so I tend to look for balance in a SP, more than mind-boggling power.
My other preffered style is 'uber-powerfull pacifist builder" where I try to snag all the SP's, but never go on the offensive.
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26-09-2001 13:24
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