20-11-2001 15:16									#31
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i thought going from 400 mhz to about 2000 would help make the unit animations in Civ 3 more smooth... oh well, at least now on a huge map it takes 5-10 min between turns instead of 20+

Civ 3 gave me a couple good ideas, but now i am learning many lessons of what NOT to do. for example, having every AI move every unit every single turn with pathfinding is NOT a good idea. also, i never played CTP much, but the idea of a tile-improvement system that doesn't involve hundreds of worker units running around the map sounds like a good idea.

in Civ 3, the computer has to re-evaluate trade paths from every city to every city every turn (and sometimes multiple times per turn, when trade routes are disrupted due to roads being pillaged etc). also it has to re-evaluate whether or not each and every city is connected to the capitol. this is in addition to all the other calculations each city has to make each turn (production, science, curruption, growth, etc etc etc). needless to say, this can become overwhelming when lots and lots of cities are on the map. i am and will be facing similar problems, and i will do my best to come up with constructive ways of countering them.

	25-11-2001 04:30									#32
	. Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Hi Dexter. I downloaded one of your demos, and I am much impressed. I'm both envious and hopeful at what can be done in just a few months.

The graphics don't display quite right on my computer, but I probably don't have the latest DirectX... Is that easy to learn to program, by the way? Seeing Civiliza take control of the entire screen, rather than just maximizing, is nearly enough to make me give up on Java.

I know you've just said that it'll be awhile before you return to coding, but I'd like to suggest anyway... It's a little hard for me to recognize at a glance what nationality a given unit is.

I'm going to try to attach part of a screenshot from what I was working on. I was inspired by Colonization's way of marking nationality. The shot's a bit ugly, especially as a JPG. The graphics are all stolen, and the tile "blunting" looks awful to mine eye. Just look at the "shields."

Depicted are an Imperialism fleet, Imperialism prospecter, female prospecter, the same female in swimsuit, a Japanese schoolgirl (unconventional warfare), and I think a knight or something.

Miznia

Attachment: mizscr.jpg
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	25-11-2001 21:50									#33
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????

	26-11-2001 03:13									#34
	Re: . Avatar Enlargement: We've got the solution

quote: Originally posted by Miznia The graphics don't display quite right on my computer, but I probably don't have the latest DirectX... Is that easy to learn to program, by the way? Seeing Civiliza take control of the entire screen, rather than just maximizing, is nearly enough to make me give up on Java.

From what I've heard it's not too different from Java. Wasn't Java modelled after C++ afterall? I never got into Java myself though, so I can't tell you for sure. Right now I'm just working with DirectDraw, the easiest component of DirectX. When you start using Direct3D is when it gets REALLY cool, with stuff like reflections, bump mapping, and translucencies.

quote: I know you've just said that it'll be awhile before you return to coding, but I'd like to suggest anyway... It's a little hard for me to recognize at a glance what nationality a given unit is. I'm going to try to attach part of a screenshot from what I was working on. I was inspired by Colonization's way of marking nationality. The shot's a bit ugly, especially as a JPG. The graphics are all stolen, and the tile "blunting" looks awful to mine eye. Just look at the "shields."

point taken. i agree with you, and i've begun working on an idea i have to perform a double-blit so the civ's nationality color can be used on the unit itself instead of using a "flag" or a "shield". if it doesn't work, i'll probably adapt something more similar to what you have shown. any ideas for displaying the hit points in a better way?

	27-11-2001 01:03									#35
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quote: From what I've heard it's not too different from Java. Wasn't Java modelled after C++ afterall? I never got into Java myself though, so I can't tell you for sure. Right now I'm just working with DirectDraw, the easiest component of DirectX.

Well, I think Java is supposed to be a lot slower than C++. Not that I know first-hand, but my programs seem pretty slow. Java can't, or generally doesn't, use stuff like DirectX, I believe. What that means to me is that I can't make the monitor go *click* and draw on the entire screen.

I was thinking, though... If I just get a later version of Java, transparency is built-in. Your program uses transparency, doesn't it? The way I have it now, it's quite slow to have to "manually" analyze what a square should look like, given the terrain type, blunting effects, unit type, and nationality. With transparency I wouldn't need to, and I wouldn't have to "blunt" anymore, either. (I realize I was a bit stupid in using blunting at all, at least for the coasts. Using separate ocean tiles to get beaches, like you do, is pretty easy, particularly if the computer decides which one is appropriate when you save the map. In your map program, don't you have to place each beach tile by hand?)

quote: point taken. i agree with you, and i've begun working on an idea i have to perform a double-blit so the civ's nationality color can be used on the unit itself instead of using a "flag" or a "shield". if it doesn't work, i'll probably adapt something more similar to what you have shown. any ideas for displaying the hit points in a better way?

That would work, but I find "shields" to be pretty and straight-forward. Then again, I also prefer Civ1-style colored blocks to represent cities. As far as hit points, I'm not sure there's an elegant way to do them. The way you and Civ2 do it is as elegant as it gets, I think. I think if it were up to me (and I'm not sure I would use hit points at all, being a minimalist), I would just make the hit point indicator a small block of green, yellow, or red. You could get more specifics by clicking or something. I'm just thinking, the fewer pixels colored "healthy green," the better the display will look.

Heh. What I would do, if I had your code, is just *swap* the nationality block and the hit point meter.

...I plan to get back into my programming as soon as winter break starts... I want to recreate the feel of Civ 1, but put my own stink on it.

Miznia

	27-11-2001 20:17									#36
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quote: Originally posted by Miznia transparency is built-in. Your program uses transparency, doesn't it? The way I have it now, it's quite slow to have

there are a few different ways of handling transparency in DirectX, the easiest being a color you pick that won't be copied by the blit process. you can set colors that you don't want to copy over in the destination too (although i never use that). also, you can set a range of colors for the blit not to copy (i never use this either, it's for video editing, like when someone is in front of a blue screen and you need to cut all the blue out and replace it with a background, obviously all the blue won't be exactly one color but they will be very similar shades of blue, which is what the range is for)

quote: all, at least for the coasts. Using separate ocean tiles to get beaches, like you do, is pretty easy, particularly if the computer decides which one is appropriate when you save the map. In your map program, don't you have to place each beach tile by hand?)

in the current version, you do. but having the computer place the appropriate one in like you said will be in a later release, probably when i get the map generator done, since it will NEED the ability to put in the coasts correctly.

quote: That would work, but I find "shields" to be pretty and straight-forward. Then again, I also prefer Civ1-style colored blocks to represent cities.

yes, i like the easy to make out Civ1 city look, however i think it would look silly with an isometric view. the colored unit idea seems to be working out, although i haven't gotten near testing all the units yet. this demo is a pretty big stretch from the last one. the last one had like 4 units or so, and this one will have nearly all of them. anyways, i'll post a little image of a tank so you can see what it looks like

quote: As far as hit points, I'm not sure there's an elegant way to do them. The way you and Civ2 do it is as elegant as it gets, I think. I think if it were up to me (and I'm not sure I would use hit points at all, being a minimalist), I would just make the hit point indicator a small block of green, yellow, or red.

great idea! i'll have to work with it and see what i can do, but i like what you're getting at

quote: You could get more specifics by clicking or something. I'm just thinking, the fewer pixels colored "healthy green," the better the display will look.

i totally agree with you. i think the big huge green bars look ugly

quote: ...I plan to get back into my programming as soon as winter break starts... I want to recreate the feel of Civ 1, but put my own stink on it.

cool. i haven't seen you around in awhile, so keep in touch here in the alt-civ forums and hopefully we can help each other out more.

-dex

	27-11-2001 20:22									#37
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almost forgot, here's the tank example:

Attachment: redtank.jpg
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	27-11-2001 22:26									#38
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like civ3 or ctp(i think) or age of empires

	28-11-2001 01:49									#39
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The tank looks pretty good, particularly if the location of the red spots is realistic. I mean, if tanks generally lack markings (I have no idea) then it might look silly.

I just placed an order to get my $25 student discounted copy of Microsoft Studio. Surely that will have a newer version of Java, and permit me to switch to C++ if I want at some point.

I've been thinking about resources. I'm trying to be simple, as always. My plan is for "production shields" to be stockpiled for all cities, like money. Military units would take shields (not sure what to call them) to be created, but rely on money to be maintained. A question is how, or whether, a city's production of a military unit is to be delayed. I'm thinking there should just be something called "labor" that has to be racked up in the city, and you'd get as much labor per turn as you have residents. Or so.

Have you said how you're dealing with it? If I remember right, in the demo of yours that I played, coins are racked up to build a unit. Am I right about that?

Miznia

	28-11-2001 03:19									#40
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quote: there are a few different ways of handling transparency in DirectX, the easiest being a color you pick that won't be copied by the blit process. you can set colors that you don't want to copy over in the destination too (although i never use that). also, you can set a range of colors for the blit not to copy (i never use this either, it's for video editing, like when someone is in front of a blue screen and you need to cut all the blue out and replace it with a background, obviously all the blue won't be exactly one color but they will be very similar shades of blue, which is what the range is for)

I actually use a different method for blitting. I use two blit statements to create the image I want. I find it's a little faster to draw to the backbuffer than the transparency colour method.

For the first blit statement at the end use the parameter SRCPAINT, and blit a "white mask" of the image onto the back buffer.

For the second blit statement at the end use the parameter SRCAND, and blit the actual "image" onto the back buffer.

EG:
BitBlt(back_dc, x_pos, y_pos, Tile_wid, Tile_hgt, bmp_dc, x_mask, y_mask, SRCPAINT);
BitBlt(back_dc, x_pos, y_pos, Tile_wid, Tile_hgt, bmp_dc, x_bmp, y_bmp, SRCAND);

Use an image such as the following:

	28-11-2001 09:07									#41
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quote: Originally posted by Miznia The tank looks pretty good, particularly if the location of the red spots is realistic. I mean, if tanks generally lack markings (I have no idea) then it might look silly.

i just went through the units pretty fast updating them with the color code. i'm sure some of them will look stupid, and some will look unrealistic, but that's not what i'm going for anyways.

quote: Have you said how you're dealing with it? If I remember right, in the demo of yours that I played, coins are racked up to build a unit. Am I right about that?

yes, that's exactly how it worked in the last demo. this next demo coming out will have a system where 10 different resources are collected, mostly from land around your city. those resources are used to build the units and the city improvements. there is also production, however, which is entirely based on the total number of people in your city minus the amount of people working on the surrounding land. all this info is clearly displayed in the city window.

	28-11-2001 09:11									#42
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quote: Originally posted by Dale I actually use a different method for blitting. I use two blit statements to create the image I want. I find it's a little faster to draw to the backbuffer than the transparency colour method. For the first blit statement at the end use the parameter SRCPAINT, and blit a "white mask" of the image onto the back buffer. For the second blit statement at the end use the parameter SRCAND, and blit the actual "image" onto the back buffer.

very interesting. i never thought of doing it that way

	28-11-2001 10:52									#43
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

Dex:
I read somewhere on gamedev.net that using the transparency method actually has a tiny memory leak causing potential crashes after long times of transparency blitting. So I researched another way to do it and came across this one single paragraph in a mates DirectX book that described my method.

BTW, I've posted my tech tree in my game's thread. Let me know what you think.

	29-11-2001 01:38									#44
	Interesting Got spare money?

quote: I actually use a different method for blitting. I use two blit statements to create the image I want. I find it's a little faster to draw to the backbuffer than the transparency colour method.

Interesting. I don't quite understand this, but I wonder if something like it is possible in Java, and if it would be faster.

quote: this next demo coming out will have a system where 10 different resources are collected, mostly from land around your city. those resources are used to build the units and the city improvements. there is also production, however, which is entirely based on the total number of people in your city minus the amount of people working on the surrounding land. all this info is clearly displayed in the city window.

So, pretty similar, if I understand (you wouldn't need to transport iron to an ironless city to build something there, right?). I would like to have something like that, where laborers are pulled from the land to work on building things (reminds me of Colonization), but my plan is that most cities won't be building anything at a given point. Especially "improvements." Small, new cities won't be able to produce anything at all (defense has to be imported), and subjugated foreign cities won't be able to produce military units.

I was thinking, after I last posted... Resources/shields might be an unnecessary complication if I have labor (to build) and gold (to support). Hmmmmm. No resources at all?!

I was also thinking about the link between food production and population growth. Does Civ's method make any sense? I was thinking, that perhaps "trade" (roads, rivers, ocean) should control speed of city growth (i.e. from immigration), provided that enough food can be produced.

A lot of thought yet to do.

	01-12-2001 05:24									#45
	Re: Interesting Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

if your city is linked to your capitol, it can contribute resources to the stockpiles, but yes stockpiles can be used wherever. as for population, i do have some kind of population sharing system planned, so that cities will change each others populations if they are linked together by roads, harbor or airport.


i just got a geforce3, and so recently i've been playing games more than i've been making games. today i finally got c++ and the directx sdk installed so i can continue working on civiliza. i finished up on getting all the units into the game (still needs lots of adjusting though) and i implemented the double-blit i was talking about earlier. it looks pretty good, although i don't know what i'm going to do about the health bar thing. i took it off for now just because the game looks so much better without it. perhaps i can have the program draw it when you hold the mouse over a unit? or just a toggle for all of them?

oh yeah, now that fighters and bombers are in the game, i want to say how i will be handling them. it will be very similar to civ2, you move them like normal units, and they have a limited range before they run out of fuel. the only difference is that fighters now get 2 turns and will have to wait a turn after they attack or after they move. this allows you to have fighter-to-fighter combat outside the cities. this will also allow you to escort your bombers.

	01-12-2001 08:02									#46
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oh one more thing. tile improvement building. IMO, the whole tile improvement thing is the worst thing about Civ2, it takes way too much micromanagement, and even civ3 has bad worker automation. i never played the CTP series, but from what i've heard it has a nice way of dealing with this. now, i have no understanding of how exactly the "public works" system works, but i will be adding something along those lines into the game. settlers will only be used to build cities, and there will be no worker or engineer units. after your public works points build up you can start building roads and such just by pressing a key and clicking on the tiles you want to improve. roads and irrigation must be linked to each other, but you can build mines and silos anywhere within your limits. just out of curiousity, can anyone tell me just how close this is to CTP's method?

	01-12-2001 11:49									#47
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That's pretty similar to CTP, the only differences are that I don't think irrigation has to touch water in CTP, and the public works are taken from a certain percentage, set by the player, of the overall production points of your civ. It sounds like your stockpiling idea would work with this concept pretty well

	02-12-2001 04:52									#48
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quote: Originally posted by JamesJKirk That's pretty similar to CTP, the only differences are that I don't think irrigation has to touch water in CTP

i don't mean necessarily touching water. the tile the city lies in will be the starting point for irrigation, and all irrigation tiles you build have to be adjacent to a city tile or adjacent to another irrigated tile. for now this will only apply to actually building the roads/irrigations and won't take away from existing ones.

	02-12-2001 05:49									#49
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i just came upon a problem. there's no way of telling who built what roads, and so now you can build roads off other civ's roads and cities, which is a bit too unrealistic for me. i'm not sure how i'm going to handle this. any suggestions?

	03-12-2001 02:29									#50
	Multiple maps Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

Dex:
I saw this problem in my first attempt at HoE (History of Empires). So when I restructured the entire code I made a huge change to the way maps and player items are handled. It's a little heavier on memory, but has HUGE benefits. Here's how it works:

1. I create a copy of the main map for EACH player.
2. I turn all tiles to "unexplored" so they come up FOW.
3. I place player known items on the map (their cities, units, improvs, roads, etc).

Disadvantages:
- Takes heaps of memory (I'll have 16 copies of the map in memory, though each copy holds less info than the main map).
- Lots of doubled information, more chance of errors (even though I'm coding heaps of checks).
- Slows performance a bit, but I believe the benefits outway that.

Advantages:
- Each player only knows what they've seen. This fixes a huge problem where (for example in Civ3) the AI knows everything about you once they meet you. Now they make reactions to what they "know".
- Easy to tell ownership of items.
- Swapping maps for updated info is now VERY important.
- Fits perfectly into OO-Programming.
Game holds players.
Players holds a map.
Map holds cities.
City holds buildings.
Map holds armys.
Army holds units.
Map holds improvs.
Map holds goods.

Hope this helps mate.

	03-12-2001 04:52									#51
	Re: Multiple maps Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Dale, thanks for the advice! i like the idea, and i will highly consider implementing it in the release after this next one, as there's no way i can get that into the game in a couple of weeks and still get through this huge list i have

	04-12-2001 10:29									#52
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ok guys, less than a couple weeks left

i'll post a screen soon if u want

Last edited by dexter4dxm on 04-12-2001 at 10:35

	08-12-2001 03:06									#53
	Got spare money?

quote: Originally posted by dexter4dxm ok guys, less than a couple weeks left i'll post a screen soon if u want

Well, no one else is biting, so I will...ahem...

Do it Dex, post the pictures, c'mon!!!!

	09-12-2001 05:43									#54
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okay, as soon as I figure out why the AI players refuse to build settlers anymore

	10-12-2001 05:52									#55
	Got spare money?

here's a couple a new shots for now...

Attachment: smshot1.jpg
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	10-12-2001 05:53									#56
	Full PM-box? Change here!

i will try to get some more shots later, hopefully showing the modern/future eras

Attachment: smshot2.jpg
This has been downloaded 23 time(s).

	10-12-2001 17:34									#57
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Nice. Are those farms in the desert? Or why is there irrigation everywhere else? Is it a freshwater source thing?

Did your AI build those roads by itself?

	11-12-2001 00:17									#58
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quote: Originally posted by Miznia Nice. Are those farms in the desert?

yes.

quote: Or why is there irrigation everywhere else?

because the AI player researched refrigeration before i did, and they upgraded all their irrigation.

quote: Is it a freshwater source thing?

there are no water source restrictions.

quote: Did your AI build those roads by itself?

yes, and it upgrades the roads when it researches the proper technologies, which is why you can see highways in its territory.

	11-12-2001 01:48									#59
	Support Apolyton or Terrorists Win

quote: Did your AI build those roads by itself?

quote: yes, and it upgrades the roads when it researches the proper technologies, which is why you can see highways in its territory.

Does this mean it goes road->railroad->highway, or something like that? I do like the idea of highways, but I wonder if you do include rails, which you should, that there would be too little time between when you'd have them, although since it's automated perhaps it's for the best

	11-12-2001 04:56									#60
	Enter the AD-FREE zone

quote: Originally posted by JamesJKirk Does this mean it goes road->railroad->highway, or something like that? I do like the idea of highways, but I wonder if you do include rails, which you should, that there would be too little time between when you'd have them, although since it's automated perhaps it's for the best

railroads will be in the game, but you won't lay them down like roads. instead you build railroad stations in your cities, and that links them together automatically (if they are on the same continent), similar to how airports work (except airports don't have that continent limitation obviously). there are still 3 levels of roads however; it goes: road->highway->circuit (circuit is from some advanced transportation tech you get in the future era).

linked railroad stations can be used to share larger populations between cities and to transfer units between cities quickly. one interesting thing is that this includes sea units, which means you can build a ship in a non-coastal city and railroad it over to a coastal city so you can use it.