28-09-2001 23:29									#1
	Air to Air DEFENSE: Locust or Armor? Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

In smac-x, armoring a/c is way damn expensive, while Locust of Chiron defend with psi and cost less, but are WAY slow.

Do you:
1. forgo defense for air units and just fly naked & cheap

2. build armored aircraft

3. build a few armored a/c and stack with it

4. build locusts and send them forward a turn ahead, stacking unarmored a/c with them.

	29-09-2001 00:26									#2
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Well, when you consider that interceptors get a 100% bonus for air-to-air combat anyway, there's really not a lot of point in adding armour, IMO. If you feel you really must build locusts to defend, then that would momentarily defend your jets, but that's about it.

When you look at air combat, you generally use choppers anyway - in which case your aircraft shouldn't need to defend. Attack whatever you need to attack, then retreat to base the same turn. Adding armour is not only pointless, IMO, but hugely expensive.

	29-09-2001 01:18									#3
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Ditto what Mark13 said. The times when you actually use an aircrafts armor rating are few and far between and, as Mark13 suggests, the armor you would put on it would be pretty much ineffective because the unit attacking it would get the +100% combat bonus. The only time I think you would survive an attack would be if your tech was way above, and way beyond, your opponents. For example, if you had 8 defense armor and your opponent still only had 4 attack weapons. The 100% bonus would keep the odds at roughly 1:1 give or take the morale bonus of the units.

	29-09-2001 01:36									#4
	Increase Your PM Length

I agree with the Mark13 and WE. Once I have choppers I only use planes for inteceptors (if at all). Choppers strike and retreat OR strike repeatedly in circumstances where you understand they will fall victim to the counterstrike.

I do not know that locust defenders are much of a better solution. I was a proponent of native life defenders for a while but then someone pointed out their vulnerability to artillery attack. A SAM artillery can take a whole stack of locusts down to their last few hit points and they are then easy victims for any form of attack.


Of your choices I NEVER armour aircraft and will usually fly naked and cheap OR I will stack the attackers with a best weapon interceptor .

	29-09-2001 06:08									#5
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I typically fly naked and cheap or sometimes use a Locust or two as a "flying fortress" near the center of air assault action when my choppers have to go out one turn and back the next, like when some pesky surviving enemy intercepters prevent paradrops or its farther than 8 squares + a land move. Also the locusts can themselves capture the bases emptied by the choppers. They are are a real multi function unit, key features being psi combat for defense, hovering, and base capture ability.

	29-09-2001 09:22									#6
	Increase Your PM Length

'bout the only time I put armor on aircraft is if I know the needlejets (never on choppers), will be spending their downturns in a base that might come under artillery fire. Light armor doesn't cost a bunch (though if you get extravagant with it, it'll cost an arm and a leg, so I stick with Synthmetal, if any at all), and I regard it as cheap insurance against getting PASTED while the planes are in-base between assignments.

In practice, I'd say that happens about one in every six planes, but that means it's REALLY rare, cos if I am gonna build a flying unit, it's almost always a chopper. (I'm guessing, but my ratio would prolly be

Chopper: 75%
Locust: 15%
Noodle: 10%

-=Vel=-

	29-09-2001 15:34									#7
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I always use a combination of jets, helicopters, and gravships (when I get them). I also put armor on everything. I try never to land helicopters in the field, either. The 30% damage leaves them too vulnerable to a marauding enemy interceptor.

	30-09-2001 00:49									#8
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Morale is very important for aircraft. It improves their range, their attack strength, and their survivability.

An elite chopper can often survive an attack by a lower morale interceptor, especially if the chopper has a weapon advantage. And of course an elite chopper is less likely to be left outside a base at the end of the turn because it gets extra movement. And also dont forget that the elite attack bonus will give your chopper a better chance of victory for every single attack. So in my opinion, rather than spend on armour, spend on whatever you need to get Elite air units- bio enhancement centers, aerospace complex, the "trained" special ability. I think its a better investment than armour.

And of course the biggest advantage you can give your self is to attack with a mass of choppers at once, so you can eliminate any and all threats to your air attack force in a single strike. That way no counter strike by the enemy will be possible.

	30-09-2001 16:42									#9
	Full PM-box? Change here!

When choppers are touched down in the field, it's no longer air-to-air; 'cuz the SMAC book sez "Any unit can attack a chopper."

Also, I've got some string gravships (W30, clean, deep radar) holding over the ocean and keeping watch over a vulnerable coast. Every once in a while, a fusion needlejet (W16) comes by and picks one off; too easily, it appears. With the +100% modifier, the odds are 32:30, so it should be a close contest, yet I see only a minimum of damage inflicted upon the attacker. I've got bioenancement centers and the Coudbase Academy, running Democracy, Power, Green, and Thought Control, so morale's not a problem. Anyone else ever see this kind of situation and catch the little combat synopsis at the bottom of the screen? Maybe I'm kidding myself and the odds are really 16:1?

	30-09-2001 18:36									#10
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I also use the Locusts as a "wild weasel" bait to to identify and kill the AIs air defenses (and reduce the intercepts that can cause terranx crashes). Send them in one turn ahead of the air assault to to visible position in the enemies territory, but do not attack with them (attacking would trigger intercepts). Their sam capable units then attack the locust, most of them dying in psi combat. Then you clean them up with more locusts on sam-choppers.

	01-10-2001 18:18									#11
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bobbyk464,
IIRC, an air unit defends with it armor unless it has the SAM attribute and is defending against another air unit (or scrambling if you consider that a defensive role). In your case, the odds you cited would apply if the unit had SAM, otherwise it would defend with its armor, which you didn't specify, but which could well be minimal as it is expensive, and thus lead to its vulnerability.

	01-10-2001 19:46									#12
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Yup that would be my assesment of bobyk464's situation as well. Since his gravships have clean and deep radar they do not have air superiority and would defend with their armour. Those guys are dead ducks against any air attack or attack from any ground or sea unit with SAM ability. Great attackers but useless defenders . Solutions include

1. Give your aircraft air superiority. Given that your weapon advantage is 2-1 they would be almost invulnerable to air attack. They would still have problems with SAM ships or rovers however

2 Stack these radar ships with air superiority or armour or locusts

BUT my preferred option is 3

3. Attack and empty every base that is threatening you. You have attack 30 weapons and wonder how to defend those things ?? Build some killer attackers using Blink, wave, attack 30 or whatever and kick some butt.

Fundamentally I do not understand the strategy of having a unit with a 30 attack strength as a scout and radar platform. Personally I would just build some sea crawlers with deep radar or a bunch of those trawlers. These are cheap, easily replaced and bring in benefits for as long as they live. Their durability is the same as your gravship. If you want to protect them there are defensive options but my preferred course if an enemy is taking out too many of my trawlers is to go take out the enemy. (I am thinking again of what can be done with an attack 30 weapon)

just my 2 cents (3 cents Canadian)

	01-10-2001 21:22									#13
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Here's my mistake - I assumed that since the gravship is an air unit, any attack on it when it's not in a base would be considered air-to-air. Apparently not: air-to-air only occurs when both units are interceptors, yes?

I'm using choppers with blink/wave for base assualt, and choppers with clean/wave for sinking approaching enemy ships. They're much better than gravships for attack roles. The idea of a gravship as a radar platform is that it can spot ships, yet can't be picked off by them (I've never seen the AI make a SAM ship). And the idea of giving it a high weapon strength is so that it can withstand an air-to-air assault. Guess again. Appears that without SAM, the weapon's a waste, and I get the 16:1, I lose. With SAM, then the odds would be 16:30, I win. I'll just have to replace the clean reactor on those units with SAM and take it from there.

So, now why is it when an enemy bomber needlejet comes in and goes for a ground target and my interceptors scramble, it looks like it's weapon-to-weapon? If it were weapon-to-armor in this situation, the interceptor would win every time? Or does the AI send interceptors after ground targets and I never noticed?

	01-10-2001 22:03									#14
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quote: Originally posted by bobyk464 Here's my mistake - I assumed that since the gravship is an air unit, any attack on it when it's not in a base would be considered air-to-air. Apparently not: air-to-air only occurs when both units are interceptors, yes?

You got it. Aircraft in the air are very very vulnerable. Thats why I love SAM rovers (even covering with an interceptor is no help). For unprotected planes, a singlr chopper interceptor can have a field day. Even a damaged chopper would likely take out at least 3 of your gravships in a single run (depending on spacing)

As for your question - I did notice that an interceptor (scrambling) fights the groundpounder on a weapon to weapon basis so no the attacker is not necessarily an interceptor. In essence this puts the interceptor at a disadvantage when scrambling as compared to when it hits jets in the air. I believe they did it that way so that bombers could be somewhat effective even in the face of an interceptor screen. I do believe that this is documented feature. (If not, it is something that I had seen noted on here before). In any event it is more "realistic" to think the interceptor does not always manage to get airborne and win the day, wouldn't you agree.


And the AI does not build any SAM ships eh ??Thats a shame. I don't build a lot of them since chopper interceptors are so much more effective with their multiple attacks but the occasional SAM ship helps to keep the opponent honest. Its great to pick some planes out of the air in some unsuspected quarter.

	01-10-2001 22:05									#15
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bobbyk464, I don't know if I have all the possible circumstances covered, but here are some I think I am reasonably sure about.

--non-SAM a/c attacks (uses weapon value for combat resolution), SAM a/c defends in open, at base or scrambling (uses weapon for combat resolution; may get air-to-air bonus, I am unsure, leaning to not)
--SAM a/c attacks (uses weapon for combat resolution; also receives air-to-air attack bonus), non-SAM a/c defends (uses armor for combat resolution; no air-to-air bonus)
--SAM a/c versus SAM a/c - weapon vs weapon (I don't think either gets the air-to-air, but maybe both do instead
--SAM a/c gets 50% penalty when attacking non air unit
--Zeppelins (with or without SAM) in tiles adjacent to a base get 75.66667% attack bounus against any a/c in that base

The attacker always uses the weapon for combat resolution, the defender uses the armor unless it is a SAM unit being attacked by another a/c in which case it uses the weapon rating. Note also that it is only SAM a/c that will scramble.

It could be as simple(?) as that, or there may be special cases. I don't believe that any other a/c in the open between turns besides a chopper may be attacked by a non a/c without SAM, but maybe.... Nor do I think that there is an in-port equivalent penalty for a/c attacked in their base tile.

	02-10-2001 17:22									#16
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Thanks for the inputs. Sounds like a pretty comprehensive summary to me; I'll buy into it.

Not sure about "Zeppelins." Is that a pet name for gravships or something from a mod?