30-09-2001 07:19									#1
	BigBear on Civ Specific Units <--U.S News claims intriguing and insightful. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

I don't know if this has really been explained before, but I am gonna bring it up anyway. Couldn't this special and unique unit for every civ idea lead to an unbalanced game play in the future. If the romans special unit is a legion, and the Americans a fighter jet of some kind, wouldn't the Americans have an advantage over the Romans in the modern age that could become an unfair one since the legion obviously becomes obselete and no longer is a factor while the Americans retain air superiority for as long as someone plays the game if it never goes obselete? If this was the case, someone who played a civ with a unique modern unit, would have an uncontrollable advantage over all other civs.

If I am wrong, which i hope, please explain how.

	30-09-2001 07:24									#2
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Sorry if anyone thought this would be more info on the Civ specific units. I realize that my topic may have led people to believe that.

	30-09-2001 07:33									#3
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simple reason: the Romans won't have their legions anymore unless they are really damn primitive. They will be using standard fighter jets... which will be slightly inferior to the American F-15s. Anyway, if the Romans are smart, they would've made sure they used their legions to beat up American phalanxes and warriors to keep a lid on the Americans in the future....

what goes around comes around.

	30-09-2001 07:33									#4
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Yeah, but the Romans' earlier civ unit might have brought lasting benefits like larger territories. This would have an effect through the rest of the game.

	30-09-2001 07:51									#5
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CSUs are unbalanced by nature. But it's too late to change that now. The very idea of uneven advantages throughout the ages is unbalanced. BigBear, the argument that you are using was the one many of us used several months ago... We'll just have to wait for the game and see.

	30-09-2001 07:51									#6
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Just because a modern unit makes all of the others obesolete doesn't mean that the civ that has the modern UU will reign supreme when he's not in the modern ages.

	30-09-2001 07:53									#7
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Just make sure that if you play the Romans, get the advantage during the age of their UU.

I think the UUs are an atempt to allow each of the Civs to 'shine' during their historical golden eras.

So make sure you take advantage of your UUs when they are available.

	30-09-2001 07:59									#8
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Yah, thats what I was thinking. If you dominated in the early ages as say the Romans than it would not be bad but in civ2, it was hard to dominate the entire world in the early ages without using ICS. I mean, one fortified pikeman would take forever for a legion(s).

Given, the advantages are not that big but with stuff like city walls and defense multiplyers and such then it might make a significant difference.

Forgive all my gramatical and spelling mistakes, I am in college and drunk,.

	30-09-2001 08:05									#9
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if the romans DID anythign with their legions they should have a huge chunk of land, and might actually get jet fighters before the americans.

	30-09-2001 08:31									#10
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quote: Originally posted by BigBear Forgive all my gramatical and spelling mistakes, I am in college and drunk,.

Isn't that a bit redundant?

	30-09-2001 10:11									#11
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*sigh* and he's from Puker land as well

This is the third time I'm posting this, but it still applies.

quote: Everyone keeps saying that the JW has such weak attack and everything, but look at *all* of the ancient units. Notice a trend? 1.1.1 Warrior 1.1.2 JW 1.2.1 Phalanx 1.3.1 Hoplite etc., etc. They *all* look worthless if you try to think of them in terms of Civ2 but when taken in context they aren't as sucky as you think. Why would a Panzer roll over opponents but a JW not? Wouldn't it make less of a difference with modern units if a/d/m is only changed by one? Take these hypothetical stats - 6.5.2 Tank 7.5.2 Panzer 8.5.2 Modern Tank Mathematically the difference between 1 and 2 is a LOT more than the difference between 6 and 7. So what does it matter if the F-15 has one more attack than a normal fighter, so what if it isn't obslete? Hey, just remember, the F-15 isn't a regular unit, it uses air strikes. So it won' be like a ground unit.

	30-09-2001 11:04									#12
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Here's the CSU's we know of so far:

Aztecs Jaguar Warrior 1-1-2 (Warrior 1-1-1)
Babylonians B. Bowmen 2-1-2 (Archer 2-1-1)
Chinese Rider 4-4-3 (Knight 4-3-2)
Egyptians E. Chariot 2-1-2 (Chariot 1-1-2)
Greeks Hoplite 1-3-1 (Spearman 1-2-1)
Indians Elephant 4-3-2 (Knight 4-3-2, but requires Horses and Iron)
Persians Expendable 4-2-1 (Swordsman 3-2-1)
Romans Legion 3-3-1 (Swordsman 3-2-1)

Now it seems to me that the Persians and Egyptians have a direct advantage in conquering neighboring Civs' territory, with their respective CSU's. But the Chinese, Greeks, and Romans have a defensive bonus, so if they expect to gain territory, it will probably mean either settling new areas and guarding against barbarians, or using the defender to guard things like catapults. The Chinese, Babylonians, and Aztecs with their movement bonus and the Indians with their production bonus will need to come up with other strategies to increase territory, which I can't anticipate right now.

By the way, MacTBone, I doubt the other so-far-unknown CSU's will all be single point bonuses on attack, defense or movement. We haven't seen anything about firepower or hitpoints yet, let alone bombardment and whatnot... Maybe the Russian CSU will be Russian Infantry, which costs half of normal infantry... I also expect Firaxis to understand the point you made about 1 making less difference with higher numbers. So I feel CSU's will be a significant factor to consider in your strategy, but won't totally unbalance the game.

	30-09-2001 11:17									#13
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Didn't they say there's an option to turn of civ specific stuff?

	30-09-2001 11:57									#14
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quote: Originally posted by Dienstag Persians Expendable 4-2-1 (Swordsman 3-2-1)

When was Persian civ-info released? It seems that I completely missed this one. I posted the "migthy immortal" as a news-item, yesterday.

quote: Originally posted by Daoloth Didn't they say there's an option to turn of civ specific stuff?

Go HERE, and click on the setup screenshot. One of the toggle-buttons is named "Allow Civ-specific abilities".

	30-09-2001 18:49									#15
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IIRC the jet fighter is obsoleted when you discover stealth. Then the stealth fighter is available, along with increased stats. I really dont think Firaxis would put in a UU that never goes obsolete.

	30-09-2001 19:48									#16
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It all looks nicely balanced. I think this will add interest to the game. Every Civ will play slightly different, adding to the gameplay. Nothing but good

	30-09-2001 21:33									#17
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I agree with Big Bear.
If any civilization gets to have their UU forever it would be bad, but I really don think thats the case.
The only thing that scares me is that we havent heard of any stealth fighter to replace the f-15, it was in civ2 but it doesnt mean its going to be in civ3.

MacTbone: Since the chinese rider got a +1 defense and a +1 move bonus i do suppose that the modern unit will get an equall percentage advantage as the ancient unis. Perhaps a +2 in all stats.

Last edited by DonJoel on 30-09-2001 at 21:53

	30-09-2001 21:46									#18
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Dienstag, just some nitpicking. The Babylonian and Egyptian UUs are named Bowmen and War Chariot, respectively.

	30-09-2001 22:06									#19
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quote: Originally posted by DonJoel The only thing that scares me is that we havent heard of any stealth fighter to replace the f-15, it was in civ2 but it doesnt mean its going to be in civ3.

Actually, if you look at the Modern Times science advisor, the Stealth technology does in fact show two air units associated with it. For my money, they will most certainly make the F15 obsolete.

The obligatory link:
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/products/screens/0,11105,454261-60,00.html

	30-09-2001 22:37									#20
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Thanks stuie, i hope you are right. Im not sure though, the planes shown were the F-117 and the B-2 spirit which both acts as bombers (even though the f-117 is called a fighter).

	01-10-2001 00:42									#21
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I'm actually thinking of playing the Americans but swapping the F-15 with Riders. In Civ 2, most of my wars were fought in the middle ages, and knights were my prime offensive and defensive weapon.

Or maybe I'll play the Chinese and switch them Industrious and Expansionist.

Either way, a super fighter in a game I'm already winning is far less useful to me than a super knight with a high defence and movement when I'm fighting most of my wars.

Of course, once I get the hang of it, I'll probably try every civilization at least once.

	01-10-2001 01:11									#22
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The beauty of it is that each and every person uses a different tactic. Therefore the CSUs won't be unbalancing, except to you. It'll all be a bit Post-Modernistic, really.