01-10-2001 04:19									#1
	The Tower of Babel Lose 30 kilos (of popups)

Question: Is the tower of Babel a wonder in the game?

We know it appears on the main menu screen for the game, and that it was stuck in as a picture [but not an in-game one] for the Babylonian civ of the week.

It's a great thematic choice, playing off the dispersal of these cultures across the globe, forced to start from scratch, and in some renderings seems to hold all four technological ages at once, starting primitively and ending, unfinished still, with motorized cranes and such.

The question is, could this possibly appear in the game, or is it just there to be a nifty idea? Would it be a small or great wonder, and what would its effects be?

BB

	01-10-2001 05:00									#2
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I'm inclined to think you are either

1. reading too much into things
and
2. seeing things that aren't really there.

and the Tower of Babel was not necessarily anything to do with Babylon. In fact, I'm pretty sure it wasn't.

	01-10-2001 05:34									#3
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quote: Originally posted by Rakki I'm inclined to think you are either 1. reading too much into things and 2. seeing things that aren't really there. and the Tower of Babel was not necessarily anything to do with Babylon. In fact, I'm pretty sure it wasn't.

Let's give this one a little thought, shall we?

I'm not saying that the tower IS in, I'm asking if it's possible that it could be in. Firaxis seems to like to stick it places, so I'm just asking if they might have stuck it in the game. And I'm not the one that made the connection between Babylon and Babel, Firaxis did, on civ3.com in the Babylonian civ of the week.

	01-10-2001 05:39									#4
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Well I think it is quite a good idea to include it, although the question is whether there is enough historical knowledge and/or grounding to justify it's inclusion in the game - isn't it thought to be a large ziggurat now?

	01-10-2001 05:52									#5
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quote: and the Tower of Babel was not necessarily anything to do with Babylon. In fact, I'm pretty sure it wasn't.

That's the most understating understatement I've ever seen. Sorry, I don't mean to insult you greatly, but I believe Babel is the Hebrew word for Babylon. The Tower of Babel was probably one of Babylon's ziggurat that the Hebrews saw when they were first taken to Babylon as slaves. They made up a story that made the towers and Babylonians look bad.

	01-10-2001 06:15									#6
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quote: Originally posted by Rakki I'm inclined to think you are either 1. reading too much into things and 2. seeing things that aren't really there. and the Tower of Babel was not necessarily anything to do with Babylon. In fact, I'm pretty sure it wasn't.

I think you should actually read at least part of someone's post before you try to make an attempt to attack them.

	01-10-2001 07:05									#7
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quote: Originally posted by Rakki I'm inclined to think you are either 1. reading too much into things and 2. seeing things that aren't really there.

Well and I'm inclined to think you either
1. are sleepy;
or
2. don't know what the hell you're talking about;

Recent explorations proved that the location of the Tower of Babel was indeed in Babylon (or very near, due to alteration of the Euphrates river course). It's as Babylonian as the Hanging Gardens (which existence is not 100% sure, quite the contrary of the Tower). Although the Tower did exist, its exact look is unknown, so every picture of it is an artistic attempt to portrait it, and not exactly a historical fact.
Quoting Civ3.com: "He [Nebuchadnezzar II] also rebuilt the Temple of Marduk and its ziggurat, which are now referred to collectively as the Tower of Babel".

quote: Originally posted by Rakki and the Tower of Babel was not necessarily anything to do with Babylon.

Bisonbison has every right to make questions about this, because Firaxis has a picture of the Tower in the Babylonians CotW. Go check.

quote: Originally posted by Rakki In fact, I'm pretty sure it wasn't.

I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Go get some sleep and stop attacking people.

	01-10-2001 07:46									#8
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Thanks for clearing up the connection guys. Now I'd like to know if it's in the game.

And if it is in the game, what's it do?

	01-10-2001 07:52									#9
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Good question Bison, it has been speculated by some of Apolyton's finest that the Tower is in fact, a major wonder!
I have seen no screens to support this however, and I would most likely guess that it's just a "mascot" of sorts for civ III.
I think the best evidence that it's not in Civ III is the limited number of major wonders (reported to be 12). With the Colossus, Oracle, Hanging Gardens, Pyramids, Great Lighthouse, and Great Library all confirmed as Great Wonders that would leave little room for yet another one belonging to the anchient period.

	01-10-2001 08:12									#10
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quote: Originally posted by monkspider Good question Bison, it has been speculated by some of Apolyton's finest that the Tower is in fact, a major wonder! I have seen no screens to support this however, and I would most likely guess that it's just a "mascot" of sorts for civ III. I think the best evidence that it's not in Civ III is the limited number of major wonders (reported to be 12). With the Colossus, Oracle, Hanging Gardens, Pyramids, Great Lighthouse, and Great Library all confirmed as Great Wonders that would leave little room for yet another one belonging to the anchient period.

Hmmm...why are 6 of th 12 great wonders in the ancient era? Seems a little unbalanced to me.

In my opinion, the "Tower of Babel" pic on the web site was just used to symbolize Babylonian culture. Nothing else has mentioned the tower, and since the Hanging Gardens are in and were certainly Babylonian, I doubt they would include the tower as well.

Cheers.

	01-10-2001 09:21									#11
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The Tower of Babel pretty much pre-dates any other Wonder.

Since the Tower was built by the progenitors of our nations, and not owned by ONE nation amongst many neighbors, it really has no place in CivIII.

	01-10-2001 11:31									#12
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and there I was thinking it was the leaning tower of Pisa.. tsk tsk.

	01-10-2001 12:43									#13
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Also, the actual Tower of Babel, if it existed, the 7th Century B.C. ziggurat in Babylon, probably didn't actually do what the Bible says it did. If it's just a great religious building, why not call it the "Great Ziggurat" or something? I also don't see why you'd replace the Oracle with it, since certainly the Oracle had more influence (at least in the literature and mythology of its culture) than the Zig did. And of course, why conjure up Biblical allusion in a historical* game?

And it's everywhere because someone at Firaxis likes Pieter Brueghel. (can't blame them, personally) Brueghel's painting, appropriately titled "The Tower of Babel", is the basis for the cover art, though conceivably without the social commentary Pieter worked into the original.

Gary

* I refuse to use "an historical. . ." It's a pointless prescriptive rule, and I think it sounds stupid.

	02-10-2001 20:24									#14
	Minor and Major Wonders Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by monkspider Good question Bison, it has been speculated by some of Apolyton's finest that the Tower is in fact, a major wonder! I have seen no screens to support this however, and I would most likely guess that it's just a "mascot" of sorts for civ III. I think the best evidence that it's not in Civ III is the limited number of major wonders (reported to be 12). With the Colossus, Oracle, Hanging Gardens, Pyramids, Great Lighthouse, and Great Library all confirmed as Great Wonders that would leave little room for yet another one belonging to the anchient period.

I agree with the Mascot idea, I think it's on the main game screen.

Where did you hear that those 6 were all major wonders? I think anything with a "great" or "grand" in it is a minor wonder. I'm pretty sure that the Oracle is a minor wonder (generic for great temple), several civs have build pyramids, and the Statue of Liberty is similar in construction to the Colossus (It's Copper, not bronze). And it makes sense to give every civ the Lighthouse so they can open up trade with each other earlier.
Longevity is a Major Wonder. Leonardo's Workshop is a Major Wonder.
The Grand Canal, Wall Street, Battlefield Medicine, Heroic Epic, SDI, Manhattan Project, Great Cathedral (Bach or Sistene?), Great Observatory (Copernicus?), and the Forbidden Palace are all minor wonders.
I think.
I guess the Internet would me a Major Wonder as well. 2 internets are kinda silly.

	02-10-2001 20:42									#15
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A Tower of Babel might arise for me if they localise the foreign versions of civ 3.