02-10-2001 06:15									#1
	Babylonian Bowman Stats (runoff election) Inflate your Upload Space

This is to decide between the 2 front runners from the last poll on the Babylonian Bowman's stats. A majority wanted them changed, but they could not agree on what to change it to. The frontrunners were:

leave it as 2.1.2
change it to 2.2.1

	02-10-2001 11:44									#2
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The only reason I say leave it is because I don't know where exactly the bowman will fit in at the time it can be built.

Basically I am saying that I just won't know till I get CivIII.

	02-10-2001 18:07									#3
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I say leave it as 2.1.2. My reason is this:
A 2.1.2 unit is much more powerful than a 2.2.1 unit, simply because it can survive longer. The longer it survives (the more battles) then greater chance it has to become veteran/elite, and then it really becomes a killing machine!

But why is it more powerful, you ask? Easy! The extra movement point allows the bowman, if he is being damages badly in a battle, to retreat. By sending out 2 bowmen, the first can attack, and if he wins, great. If he was going to lose (lost half his hitpoints), then he retreats from battle, and then the second bowman attacks, with much better odds of a win than against an undamaged opponent. Upon winning, he might be upgraded to veteran/elite status. Also, the other bowman can then heal himself, and still be used after almost losing a battle.

However, a 2.2.1 unit, when almost at death during a battle, cannot retreat. If they dont win the combat round, they are killed forever, and thus unable to receive much by way of increased rank...

	02-10-2001 22:25									#4
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Maybe, 2.1.2 isn't so unrealistic, but it sure as heck is identical to the Egyptian War Chariot. Is that unique? No. Maybe we should change the War Chariot to a 2.2.1. The one move would represent that they were always getting stuck in the mud. They were useless on terrains other than desert, plains, and grasslands, so on those three terrains only they would move "all as road".

	03-10-2001 00:13									#5
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quote: Originally posted by Dimorier Maximus Maybe, 2.1.2 isn't so unrealistic, but it sure as heck is identical to the Egyptian War Chariot. Is that unique? No.

It's not the statistics that make the unit unique, it's what the unit IS. The units themselves have only a marginal advantage over the regular unit (and rightly so), but the Unique Units add a certain level of distinctness to each civilization which makes the experience of playing the Babylonians different from playing the Egyptians. You wouldn't say "BOW BEFORE MY MIGHTY 2.1.2 UNIT!" but "BOW BEFORE MY MIGHTY BOWMAN!" (or War Chariot if you're playing the Egyptians)...

	03-10-2001 02:27									#6
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i say, well unique units need to be unique.

quote: It's not the statistics that make the unit unique, it's what the unit IS. The units themselves have only a marginal advantage over the regular unit (and rightly so), but the Unique Units add a certain level of distinctness to each civilization which makes the experience of playing the Babylonians different from playing the Egyptians. You wouldn't say "BOW BEFORE MY MIGHTY 2.1.2 UNIT!" but "BOW BEFORE MY MIGHTY BOWMAN!" (or War Chariot if you're playing the Egyptians)...

dont really agree. how bout, (sarcastically)
my 2-1-2 War Chariot will beat your 2-1-2 BOWMAN!!! o ya? ya! well, well, uhh...

	03-10-2001 04:28									#7
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I also imagine that the Bowmen would require different resources to build. For instance, I really doubt you'll need horses to build a bowman as you would to build a chariot. I don't have the game, but this could be a distinct advantage above and beyond the simple 2-1-2 or 2-2-1 debate. So in all actuality the bowmen will really be unique from the Egyptian chariots simply because of the resources required to build them will be different. A subtle, but probably vastly important difference especially if you don't have horses as a resource.

	03-10-2001 15:28									#8
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quote: I also imagine that the Bowmen would require different resources to build. For instance, I really doubt you'll need horses to build a bowman as you would to build a chariot. I don't have the game, but this could be a distinct advantage above and beyond the simple 2-1-2 or 2-2-1 debate. So in all actuality the bowmen will really be unique from the Egyptian chariots simply because of the resources required to build them will be different. A subtle, but probably vastly important difference especially if you don't have horses as a resource.

hmmm. seriously, i didnt think about this...

	04-10-2001 09:01									#9
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This poll is tight, but with only 17 votes, it is far from finished. We need more input to settle this thing once and for all.

Whether or not Firaxis changes it, I do not know. But I know that if they don't change it, it will be the first thing I change in my first Civ3 modpack.

	04-10-2001 12:24									#10
	Increase the size of your Attachments

I say change it to 2.2.1 A non mounted, non wheeled unit should not have a movement of 2 that early on in the game.

	05-10-2001 02:49									#11
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the poll is close...

	05-10-2001 13:51									#12
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You compare bowman to chariot?