02-10-2001 10:19									#1
	westernized and unroyal renaissance leader clothing Full PM-box? Change here!

Hello all,
This is an e-mail i sent to askthecivteam .. I'm sure this e-mail is probably too late to make any difference, but I wanted to know if I was the only one out there who felt this way up until now.

Hello,

I am really looking forward to the game! I don't know if this is too late for me to suggest this, but I have been just slightly concerned by some of the screen shots I've been seeing of the renaissance garb of some of the leaders.

A lot of the renaissance garb seems very eurocentric. Of course, this makes sense for the European civs, but seeing Cleopatra in a bonnet and Ghandi with a painter's hat just seems a bit out of place. Maybe you could do some research into what Egyptians typically wore in the middle ages, and the same with the Indians. I just would like to see true civilization diversity. On a side note, I think the "modern" Cleopatra should wear a Islamic chador (head-covering required to be worn by some Muslim denominations), since most Egyptians nowadays are Muslim. Again, I'm sure the art is already set in place but it's worth a shot!

Also, the renaissance garb in general for the leaders don't seem very royal -- for Ceasar, Abe, and Ghandi... They look more like common merchants or artisans rather than actual rulers of a nation.

Thanks for listening to my input!

	02-10-2001 11:14									#2
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I must agree.

Middle Age Cleo (not really renaissance, because that means rebirth of Roman and Greek learning in Europe from Islamic Empires), should look more Muslim that European. Same for other cultures. Their Middle Age look should be most non-Western. I hope that they will.

	02-10-2001 11:43									#3
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Yes, this would be appropriate. But is it too late?

	02-10-2001 12:11									#4
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I must respectfully disagree, I feel that the portraits of the western leaders aren't designed so much for historical for accuracy as they are to entertain and generally provide eye candy of sorts. While Egypt may have been a predominantly muslim country during our version of the renaissance, we must remember, as always, that Civ 3 is not to relive history but to rewrite it. Moreover, the mass market that the game is aimed for for the most part, only identifies the Euroesque garbs featured on Cleo and the like as what people wore during the renaissance. Case in point, when you watch a movie taking place during the renaissance, what type of clothing does virtually everyone wear? Now I know not many films are set in Renaissance Egypt, but that's not my point. When people think "renaissance" and "clothing" they immediately think of the euro-centric type stuff that we are seeing in the game. Besides, once again, the main role of these diplomatic images is to entertain. i would wager that the vast majority of buyers find Ghandi in some wacky Renaissance garb to be more amusing than Ghandi in the form of clothing that was historically in vogue in India at the time.
I say keep the Euro-garbs!

	02-10-2001 12:13									#5
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I didn't say I wanted them to change it, just that is would be appropriate (in some sense, I guess).

	02-10-2001 13:20									#6
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Keeping the 'Euro-garbs' would be akin to saying that other nations' cultures did not matter at that time. In the Modern Era perhaps that is true (everyone has suits), but in the Mid Ages that is very very false, and if I was the easily offended type, I would be by that remark .

	02-10-2001 21:39									#7
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There is no need for cultural ethnocentric overtones, Imran my friend. While it is true that the Arab culture from that period (or any period) is just as worthy as any European culture. We must keep in mind that this is a game designed to entertain the masses, and most people are unfamillar with arab/middle-eastern type clothing from the period. Also, there is no need to stick strictly to clothing that was historically worn in a country during that time period, as the point of the game is to re-write history. Maybe in our hypothetical history, the EUROPEANS are the ones who adopt Muslim clothes and customs.
While yes, I agree with you that Arab culture from that period is by no means inferior to that of it's European brethren, I don't think we should take something that's intended to designed to be lighthearted and comical so seriously.

	03-10-2001 04:15									#8
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Um... what about Asians? I mean, you are selling the game in Japan and the Far East. I'm not thinking those customers would like their leaders wearing European garb in the Middle Ages!

And just because people are unfamiliar with it is no excuse. In fact, since Sid has stated that he is happy that Civ teaches people, this is a great oppertunity to do so.

	03-10-2001 05:19									#9
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IT'S ART!!! The artists have artistic freedom in most probablilty and they thought that Ghandi with a Euro-Renaisance hat was funny. So they drew him like that. Sheeesh.

	03-10-2001 05:58									#10
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Not interesting to me...

Should have put him in Indian garb for the Mid Ages, and maybe they will.

	03-10-2001 06:34									#11
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Put up a poll and see what everyone says.

Barshy or Imran Siddiqui, you have the honor to do it.