27-05-1999 14:22									#1
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Hullo, I'm new to this forum.

I'm in the middle of designing a scenario based on Elizabethan England (with the Virgin Queen replacing the Great Wall, Papal intervention replacing Senate intervention, etc.). Unfortunately, I am not that well-versed in the military units of the era. Is there perhaps a pre-existing scenario that I could 'borrow' to base my scenario on? Any suggestions on units to add to the realism? Thanks a lot.

	27-05-1999 17:59									#2
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Hi Ardonn,

you can use all units (as long as you credit me for them in a readme or something) in my Republic scenario, about the Dutch republic starting in 1589. You can download it at : http://csc.apolyton.net/zips/republic.zip

[This message has been edited by Allard HS (edited September 17, 1999).]

	27-05-1999 20:40									#3
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Hi Allard,

Thanks a lot. I am downloading it right now. The period is precisely what I'm looking for (late 16th century). In fact, I think this was a time when Elizabeth I first committed a large military force abroad (if we don't count the pirates who preyed on Spanish ships for her).

What I don't know, though, is exactly how far military technology had come by then. I know that cannons must have been used, but I am not versed in the details. So thanks, the scenario you gave me will help a lot.

Although I am not exactly new to scenario creation. I have yet to master all the techniques. I am trying to add some unique touches to my scenario.

Elizabeth I was known for using her single status to further England's interests in the then bipolar Europe (with Spain and France at opposite polars).

I had initially tried to edit "Game.txt" so that alliances become marriages instead. Of course, that meant the game would only make sense if one plays as Elizabeth. And there was always the danger of Elizabeth practicing bigamy marrying both Phillip II AND the king of France (I still don't know which king I'm gonna use, France went through several during her reign).

I'm still trying to decide, whether Mary Queen of Scots becomes a military unit (whose death will cause Phillip II to declare war on England) or simply a rival leader to Elizabeth. Again, it's still all being designed and it's too early to say anything else with certainty.

	27-05-1999 23:48									#4
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How much military was known can easily be found out on various places on the Internet, just have a look on Altavista. I found some good pages, but lost their URL's recently.
Basically, yes, the cannon was invented long ago already by then and sometimes used, though not really often, and the things were very unprecise and dangerous for the shooters.
The average army at that time consisted of knights and pikemen, especially the pikemen had a huge role in warfare by then. Although Musket and Arquebuises were being used, it was not at the middle of the 16th century very common, and when taken prisoner, the users of firearms were immediately executed and tortured, since it was believed that the use of firearms was immoral and gave ordinary, non-knights, too much unfair advantage.
That's basically the situation of armies in northern Europe in the the mid-16th century.

The marrying idea seems great to me, but I think that marriages will be broken a bit too much in Civ 2 to be represented in that way.

If you need any help, which I am able to help you with (I'm not an expert on this time of history), just email me at ahofelt@hotmail.com .
[This message has been edited by Allard HS (edited September 17, 1999).]

	28-05-1999 04:25									#5
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I'm fascinated by what you just said about gunpowder and especially on firearm users.My confusion about the military units of the time was caused by the fact that during one of the many plots to assassinate Elizabeth I, a member of a crowd was said to have pointed some kind of firearm at her. That started me thinking if there was something I didn't know about Elizabethan military technology (which according to paintings of the time, were practically sword-based). Thanks for clearing up the context of firearms in the late 16th century.

I loved the idea you had in your scenario of the dreaded fireships/burning ships. I had forgotten about them and the role they played in thwarting the Spanish Armada in the late 1580s. I'm planning to add Francis Drakes' sea dogs (pirates) in my scenario.

I agree that marriage can't really replace alliances in gameplay. That is why the English will have the wonder called "The Virgin Queen" (the Great Wall) that stalls foreign aggression like the single queen did during her reign (by using her marriagable status and beauty).

I'll be sure to email you with any more musings and questions.

	27-08-1999 09:45									#6
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I love the Elizabethan world and definitely want to play this scenario when it's done. How does it progress Ardonn?

If I were making the scenario I'd have the ruler of France be Catherine de Medici -- she was the real power behind the throne.

The marriage idea is great, unfortunately I have to agree that it just won't work with the way Civ2 is organized.

If Mary of Scotland is going to be a unit, I think all the rulers should be units. But how are you going to get Mary to come to England to be killed?
[This message has been edited by valmont (edited August 26, 1999).]

	03-09-1999 01:05									#7
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It's not finished, but this set of units borrowed by me from certain games might be helpful:
http://www.sidgames.com/hosted/zigg...al/leorips2.gif

------------------
St. Leo
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www.sidgames.com/sidportal/
www.sidgames.com/forums/
Member of the AUP!

	12-09-1999 00:48									#8
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Don't forget the armada!!!!!

	17-09-1999 01:17									#9
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Drake **MUST** be a unit. Take the icon from nelson in the Napoleon scenario.

England **MUST** have both Magellan's expedition AND the Lighthouse.

	17-09-1999 12:37									#10
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don't listen to Hodad. England should be as good on the seas as Holland was. They either both should have Magellan or neither, or just give both Fusion Power (if i'm not mistaken that gives +1 movement for ships). Actually, from the 1600's to the 1700's, Holland was even navally superior in most wars and in a merchantile way to England.

	17-09-1999 19:02									#11
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Don't listen to Allard. Elizabeth died in 1603. A scenario about "Elizabethan England" should probably end well before her death. The Low Countries were still struggling to get free from the Empire. They should have enormously lucrative trade units but not much firepower. Wealth should be the key to success in this scenario - especially wealth obtained by bribing enemy trade ships. I don't know if Drake himself should be a unit - how would that work? But the Golden Hind definitely.

I wish there were a way to simulate a royal progress by having a Queen Elizabeth unit whose presence in a city makes every unhappy content or 2 content happy or something. Like a Wonder that can move around.

About the Armada: something should be done to simulate the violent weather that wrecked the Spanish ships - invisible units attacking them, or something.

Hmm, getting impatient waiting for this scenario. I may have to make it myself.

	17-09-1999 19:37									#12
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I tried this game once called Time of Thunder. It was at about the same time. It was about Spain mostly though, I think. It was very good too.

	18-09-1999 09:37									#13
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The scenario Time of Thunder: Filipe II is by Jesus Balsinde. And yes it is very good. Playing as the Spanish it is also the only one of his that I'm likely to win very soon. Except for several tactical errors, I would have won this one the first time I played it. Normally his scenarios beat me into the ground.

Ken

	18-09-1999 16:38									#14
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During the Elizabethan era, I have been led to believe that England was only just beginning to become the great naval power that it was during the next few centuries (it isn`t anymore, but some of us Brits still belive it is ). I`m not sure about Holland being militarily strong at sea, but it definitely was a strong mercantile power, and this could be reflected in the game by giving all the Dutch cities strong and profitable trade links.

Back to the British navy. The Spanish Armada was much stronger than whatever the English could muster, as they were larger, had larger cannons, etc. But as has already been mentioned, Drake used fireships to great effect (infact, he had used fireships to destroy quite a few Spanish ships before they had left Cadiz. The rest of the ships sailed to Calais, and when they reached it Drake used fireships to trap them in the harbour again!). The idea about storms destroying the Spanish ships is a good one, and is probably the only reason that the English won.

This may be irrelevant waffle, but I`d like to think it isn`t.

P.S To correct Allard, it is the Nuclear Power advance which gives ships +1 movement.

[This message has been edited by Paul Hanson (edited September 18, 1999).]

	24-09-1999 08:30									#15
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When considering Units for this time period, don't forget the English Longbow, which virtually wiped out the French knights at Agincourt and was pretty much responsible for the English victory in that battle. (Henry V).

Its role was eventually taken over by Bombard/Cannon, but not in Elizabeth's time to any great extent I think.

	25-09-1999 15:52									#16
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Here are some suggestions for the armada:
Give the Spanish the lighthouse (renamed of course); and make all Spanish ships act like triremes. The Spanish ships are more powerful than the English.
At a special occasion (destruction of a unit or a turn), give the Spanish a tech that makes the lighthouse obsolete-et voila! You got the most beautiful shipwreck in the history of Civ2