04-10-2001 08:34									#1
	What the Hell (excuse the language) Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

Ok, the poll about whether to have Civ3 as a "Windowed" game like Civ2 was overwhelmingly in the favor of having Civ3 as a "Windowed" game. I'm sure that must have been one of the requests on the list. People around here in threads have expressed their feelings on the subject. Presumably many ask the civ team questions have been directed towards this subject. All of these factors have indicated to Firaxis that the public wants a "windowed" game, yet Firaxis claims that the game will not be in "windowed" mode (stated in threads previously). They also claim that the alt+tab works wonderfully. Ah who cares if that works great? I don't want to have to open up all my applications before entering a game, so I can use alt+tab! I also don't want to hear any excuses of why it's not in "windowed" mode because there are none that are viable. For Firaxis not making Civ3 a "windowed" game all I have to say is what the hell!

	04-10-2001 08:39									#2
	Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

I too would have much preferred windowed mode, or AT LEAST an option. I know some other games have this sort of option. I just hope that it really is as alt-tab friendly as they say it is.

	04-10-2001 08:41									#3
	Tired of ads?

Personally, im glad they didnt make Civ 3 a windowed game. I would rather be immeresed in the game than to put the game inside a window and have micro$hit intrude on my Civ 3 experience!! As long as i can still use the services of windowz (thru alt-tab) thats all i really care about in this regard.

	04-10-2001 08:46									#4
	Support Apolyton, pre-order Civilization IV

As long as the game CAN be run full screen, I don't care if it can be windowed or not. I never use windowed mode, as tasking out of a program is sufficient for me.

	04-10-2001 08:53									#5
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations

Personally, I don't care that the game is full screen. If I want to use another program, I can switch out of the game and do whatever I feel like doing. The most likely reason for Firaxis's decision, believe it or not, is not because they hate you. It takes much more in the way of resources to display graphics in a window, as people want. You may not like their decision, but you should try to live with it without complaining. There is nothing you can do.

	04-10-2001 08:55									#6
	Increase the size of your Attachments

It's not that all the non-windowed opinions are irrelevant in this thread, it's that they don't help Techwins feel any better. A substantial portion of the community would appreciate the option to have it windowed, and it looks like they won't get it. They didn't ask for a certainty, just an option.

That does suck, Techwins.

Last edited by Bisonbison on 04-10-2001 at 09:09

	04-10-2001 09:00									#7
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

I always find it pretty funny when people here at Apolyton get upset when a feature they like is not included in Civ3. I'm sure that the people here at Apolyton are a minority of the total number of people who enjoy Civilization. Firaxis probably gets lots of mail from other people who have their own preferences about this feature and that feature. What's more, Firaxis can't please everyone so they have to decide themselves what should or should not be in the game. Some of their decisions are probably based on fan input, some on the preferences of the Firaxis staff, and some are probably influenced by practicality (cost or average computer specs, for example) Of course, we should put in our two cents worth and try to influence the decision makers but it strikes me as childish when people start cursing or raising a fuss when they are not pleased by a Firaxis decision. It reminds me of Christmas when children make a big list of wants and then throw a tantrum Christmas morning because they didn't get everything they asked for.

Let the flaming begin.

	04-10-2001 09:04									#8
	Increase Your PM Length

Glad my opinions are irrelevant.

And Anatolia- I see, and agree with what you are saying. Mostly about "I'm sure that the people here at Apolyton are a minority of the total number of people who enjoy Civilization". This is the truth.

	04-10-2001 09:11									#9
	Increase the size of your Attachments

windowed games = no directX
no directX = crappy graphics
if the game was windows w/ crappy graphics, then everyone would complain about crappy graphics.
talk about a no win situation!

	04-10-2001 09:23									#10
	Browse Apolyton AD-FREE

quote: It takes much more in the way of resources to display graphics in a window

Obviously you didn't read this part "I also don't want to hear any excuses of why it's not in "windowed" mode because there are none that are viable". Firaxis should be able to provide the option of going into "windowed" mode to make most of their Civ community happy. I believe the poll to have "windowed" mode or full screen was in favor of windowed (ah screw the quotations) mode; the final results were something like 95% - 5%. So really there is not a true excuse for Firaxis to not make Civ3 a windowed game or at least have the option to make it a windowed game. Having windowed mode is especially useful in MP, whenever that may be. Alt+Tab is just not enough; you would understand this if you would have read this "I don't want to have to open up all my applications before entering a game, so I can use alt+tab". Who knows what applications you are going to want to open while playing the game. Most of the time in SP it won't be many but you never know. Now this is just me but whenever I listen to MP3s when playing a full screen game they always seem to be glitchy. Once in a while the song might stop or start to sound fuzzy. Why take a chance of these annoyances occurring with full screen when you could be stress free with windowed mode? At least give the people who want to free movement a windowed mode option and those who like to have restrictions a full screen option.

quote: You may not like their decision, but you should try to live with it without complaining

Don't take my complaining or arrogance the wrong way. I'm most diffinitely going to buy Civ3 regardless of anything. Even more so now that I've paid $10 towards the game through the pre-order (few weeks back).

	04-10-2001 09:27									#11
	Remove this text

quote: I always find it pretty funny when people here at Apolyton get upset when a feature they like is not included in Civ3

I'm not really that upset over it as I make it out to be. It's just surprising that Firaxsi didn't at least include it as an option.

I should note that I'm not one who gets upset very often when I hear Firaxis didn't include this and that.

	04-10-2001 09:37									#12
	Get a bigger avatar today!

Civ2 was windowed, right? And what the heck does alt+tab do?

	04-10-2001 09:41									#13
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization 2

Yes, Civ2 was windowed, which is one of the reasons why Civ2 was so great.

Alt+Tab switches you through your applications you have open. Lets say you have Civ3 web page and Apolyton web page open. You are viewing Civ3 and you then press Alt+Tab you will be taken to the Apolyton page. Alt+Tab is very useful in full screen, in fact it is a must. Although, having windowed mode is much more efficient IMO.

	04-10-2001 09:56									#14
	NO Windoze! Support Apolyton, buy Call to Power 2

quote: Originally posted by Skanky Burns Personally, im glad they didnt make Civ 3 a windowed game. I would rather be immeresed in the game than to put the game inside a window and have micro$hit intrude on my Civ 3 experience!! As long as i can still use the services of windowz (thru alt-tab) thats all i really care about in this regard.

Since I am probably going to soon have my first Wintel computer, with Windows XP at that, and since I have heard so much as to how XP tries to immerse you in connecting to Microsoft services* (which I will have NO interest in), I too will be glad to have Civ3 taking up the whole screen.
Having the whole screen dedicated to the game will allow more of the map to be visible, though I will miss the availability of the menus at the top of the screen that I am accustomed to with a Mac (as with Civ2).

*The Mossberg Report

	04-10-2001 10:18									#15
	Suffering from ads?

So Firaxis should listen to popular will about some feature and impliment it even if it'll make the game worse (in this case, graphically)?

	04-10-2001 10:23									#16
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: So Firaxis should listen to popular will about some feature and impliment it even if it'll make the game worse (in this case, graphically)?

I've heard that the game can stay just as competitive in the graphics arena. To answer your question - yes, Firaxis should do whatever pleases the majority of the public, regardless of what the effects are.

	04-10-2001 10:50									#17
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

Of course, the respondents to the poll you cite represent perhaps 0.001% of the people who will buy Civ3. Also, it was a self-selected sample. So, it's mis-stating things to say the majority of the public.

	04-10-2001 11:16									#18
	Remove this text

quote: Originally posted by Nemo windowed games = no directX no directX = crappy graphics if the game was windows w/ crappy graphics, then everyone would complain about crappy graphics. talk about a no win situation!

Did not know that, thanks for the info. It makes sense that they would choose a non-windowed mode, which I'm now glad they did. (I was one of the ones in the polls who asked for it to be windowed, I guess I should be more careful of what I ask for in the future!)

	04-10-2001 11:25									#19
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

does anyone remember a game, released in 2000 or 2001, that allowed windowed mode?

the only one i know is championship manager, but then again, it doesnt have any graphics...

	04-10-2001 11:45									#20
	Support Apolyton, buy Galactic Civilizations: Deluxe Edition

I don't know of a single one, MarkG. Oh, except the one you just mentioned.

Though... I did manage to get Tribes2 into a window once- quite unexpected, and really not by desire.

	04-10-2001 12:13									#21
	Support Apolyton, buy Alpha Centauri

quote: I've heard that the game can stay just as competitive in the graphics arena. To answer your question - yes, Firaxis should do whatever pleases the majority of the public, regardless of what the effects are.

The majority of the public would rather have the better graphics (unit animations, leader animations, terrain) than a windowed mode. I know I would and so would most game players, I'm sure.

	04-10-2001 12:15									#22
	Help yourself to an AD-FREE life

I wonder what a new poll would reveal, for I am also thankful it will be full screen. Poor office drones won't be able to play Civ III during work hours - BOO HOO!

Bkeela.

	04-10-2001 12:28									#23
	Increase Your PM Length

I don't like how when you alt+tab away from a game to go do something, it isn't working in the background. This is a BIG problem with CtpII because it's so slow between turns, so you want to Alt+tab and do other things, but you can't or the game just pauses. If Civ III needs lots of time in between turns, I would much rather have windowed. Otherwise, the graphics are better in full screen mode.

	04-10-2001 13:58									#24
	Full PM-box? Change here!

quote: Originally posted by Nemo windowed games = no directX

Are you sure? IIRC that's not a sw limit (Windows GUI routines use Direct X itself, IIRC). If you argue that calling Windows GUI libraries it's a bad use of resources, I can agree.

quote: no directX = crappy graphics

AFAIK some great and fast FPS don't use DirectX at all, because using OpenGL they run faster and programming with OpenGL wasn't a mess as using DirectX.

IIRC using DirectX in full screen / not windowed really make simpler the task of programmers: no need to manage resize and lot of others events who can mess up the game interface.

Of course you need a 3D Card to use OpenGL. I'm only arguing about the link "No DirectX - Slow Graphic" you suggest.

Disclaimer: I'm no more a programmer, and I never programmed a game, so I can be deadly wrong

That said, I can live with a game full screen, if Alt+Tab works nicely.

	04-10-2001 14:03									#25
	Support Apolyton, buy GURPS/ Alpha Centauri

damn,
not being able to play the game at work while pretending that i am doing something useful is a big minus. it would be really cool to stare at the screen and fake some serious rethinking of our policies and regulations while mercilessly pounding some helpless civ

	04-10-2001 17:26									#26
	Get a bigger avatar today!

quote: Originally posted by TechWins Obviously you didn't read this part "I also don't want to hear any excuses of why it's not in "windowed" mode because there are none that are viable".

well then you dont give your opponents any chance to argue. you are going on a tirade without any hope for people against you to make a point

quote: Firaxis should be able to provide the option of going into "windowed" mode to make most of their Civ community happy. I believe the poll to have "windowed" mode or full screen was in favor of windowed (ah screw the quotations) mode; the final results were something like 95% - 5%.

bullshit... but even if it isn't apolyton does NOT represent the majority of the community. IT is mostly programmer/smart types who like to multitask - and that is not the majority of game players.

quote: So really there is not a true excuse for Firaxis to not make Civ3 a windowed game or at least have the option to make it a windowed game. Having windowed mode is especially useful in MP, whenever that may be. Alt+Tab is just not enough; you would understand this if you would have read this "I don't want to have to open up all my applications before entering a game, so I can use alt+tab".

oh can it! you dont want to do this, you dont want to do that.. and all your proposed changes are at the expense of something that is to most people much more important... be logical please.

quote: Who knows what applications you are going to want to open while playing the game.

well, as long as you have one other (non-fullscreen) app open, you can always open any others from that. In some gajmes ive played, you dont even have to have another app open, the alt-tab brings it right to the desktop... they say civ3 is alt-tab friendly...

quote: Most of the time in SP it won't be many but you never know. Now this is just me but whenever I listen to MP3s when playing a full screen game they always seem to be glitchy. Once in a while the song might stop or start to sound fuzzy. Why take a chance of these annoyances occurring with full screen when you could be stress free with windowed mode? At least give the people who want to free movement a windowed mode option and those who like to have restrictions a full screen option.

you want them to do the graphics programming TWICE!?!

The only valid argument for windowed wan't even made by you, but by orange, with the point about how the program doens't keep functioning when you alt-tab, and if the turns take a long time on slower computers, its annoying.

	04-10-2001 17:59									#27
	Tired of ads?

quote: Originally posted by TechWins Obviously you didn't read this part "I also don't want to hear any excuses of why it's not in "windowed" mode because there are none that are viable".

Ah, so you don't want anyone to post anything but agreement with you, even if and/or when you're wrong? lol! Sorry, you should know better than that when posting here.

quote: Firaxis should be able to provide the option of going into "windowed" mode to make most of their Civ community happy. I believe the poll to have "windowed" mode or full screen was in favor of windowed (ah screw the quotations) mode; the final results were something like 95% - 5%.

Ah, hate to break it to you but there are how many people who come here to Apolyton and how many people who will buy Civ3? A little clue for you, the people here at Apolyton aren't even CLOSE to representing the market for the game so your opinion and that poll means squat, other than something to do while we wait for the game.

quote: So really there is not a true excuse for Firaxis to not make Civ3 a windowed game or at least have the option to make it a windowed game. Having windowed mode is especially useful in MP, whenever that may be. Alt+Tab is just not enough; you would understand this if you would have read this "I don't want to have to open up all my applications before entering a game, so I can use alt+tab". Who knows what applications you are going to want to open while playing the game.

Ah, windowed mode while playing MP, what an easy way to CHEAT. Yes, I am not saying you do cheat, but many people do, if not at Civ3 then at other games while playing MP, why make it easier for them?

And there is a reason to not make the game in a window, it's called DirectX, you know, the software that allow all other video cards besides the Voodoo series to offer good graphics?

quote: Most of the time in SP it won't be many but you never know. Now this is just me but whenever I listen to MP3s when playing a full screen game they always seem to be glitchy. Once in a while the song might stop or start to sound fuzzy. Why take a chance of these annoyances occurring with full screen when you could be stress free with windowed mode? At least give the people who want to free movement a windowed mode option and those who like to have restrictions a full screen option.

CD-Burners and CD's (music) are cheap, if your PC can't handle the load/strain then burn the MP3's to CD or buy the music. Better yet, upgrade your PC if you want it to handle better loads.

quote: Don't take my complaining or arrogance the wrong way. I'm most diffinitely going to buy Civ3 regardless of anything. Even more so now that I've paid $10 towards the game through the pre-order (few weeks back).

Hmm, so how can we take your arrogance the right way when you refuse to listen to valid reasons on why the game will run and look better in full mode? As Mark has said can you name a top 20 game in the last two years that has run in windowed mode? I can't.

List of games that run in full-screen:

Diablo2
Age of Kings
The Sims
Baldurs Gate 2
Icewind Dale
Rollercoaster Tycoon
Homeworld
Call to power (1 & 2)
Red Alert 2
Railroad Tycoon 2
Tropico
Half-Life
Black & White
Soldier of Fortune
Etc, etc...

These are simply games I have bought, played or heard about in the last two or three years that do not run in windowed mode. Windowed mode is dead, get used to it.

I hope you don't take my arrogance or corrections of your whining in the wrong way.

	04-10-2001 19:02									#28
	Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Realise that CIV2 was programmed for a WIN 3.1/11 envirioment, which didnt support full screen apps. I think if WIN 3.1 supported full screen apps, they would programme the game for full screen.

	04-10-2001 19:46									#29
	Support Apolyton, buy Civilization III: Complete

Ozzy: You forgot to mention a couple of games that albeit a wee bit over 2 years old are directly relevant. Namely the last two creations of Firaxis, Getysburg! and SMAC. Both of which are full screen games. Why should anyone expect them to change that policy now?


Personally, as sucky as the Windows GUI is, I am surprised that anyone would that desperately want a windowed mode. To me, the look and feel of the internal UI of Civ3 would be ruined by trying to shove it into a windowed mode.

	04-10-2001 21:03									#30
	actually Put an end to popups!

Diablo2 runs in window mode with the -w option you put in the shortcut. It actually runs faster on machines without a 3d card. Another game that just came out with window mode build in is Tropico.