18-10-2001 07:21									#91
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quote: I wanted to argue some with you inflated hungarians

Go ahead but I must know where you come from first before I waste my time. The peoples of the Carpathian Basin have no intention of reconciliation, and that's what makes the Balkans the Balkans.

	18-10-2001 09:13									#92
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If you will insist on denying our origins that really won't help reconciliation.

Though I suspect within a couple decades we will be able to use genetics to trace ethnic group ancestries decently.

	19-10-2001 08:31									#93
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quote: Originally posted by MagyarCrusader Go ahead but I must know where you come from first before I waste my time. The peoples of the Carpathian Basin have no intention of reconciliation, and that's what makes the Balkans the Balkans.

We want to reconciliate with everybody, as long they agree with us

Serious now, for a true reconciliation is necesary a compromise form both sides. Hungary made a first step with the 'magyar ID card'. Keep this way and we'll be like brothers (like Cain and Abel ).

VetLegion - please email me that book. I don't have too much time to look for it myself.
I am interesed to see some other point of view - I read even a soviet historians book about Napoleon. It was funny to see the implications of class-struggle in Napoleonic Wars.

	19-10-2001 08:41									#94
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You know, Hungary was a German kingdom until you Magyars hit. Not that it ws necessarily a bad thing, but...

Anyway, just thought I'd say:

szurt feketeribizli nektar

It's good.

	19-10-2001 14:42									#95
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quote: VetLegion - please email me that book. I don't have too much time to look for it myself.

no problem, just mail me your email please, it is somehow hidden in the forum I wasnt able to find it

quote: I am interesed to see some other point of view - I read even a soviet historians book about Napoleon. It was funny to see the implications of class-struggle in Napoleonic Wars.

	19-10-2001 17:58									#96
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I totally agree Hungary should be in the game, for there size they have managed great thing though out history.

My family (Fathers Side) come from Hungary so I agree they should be in the game, Though unlike OzzyKP my family managed to keep control of their castle at Edgar (Even fought of the Turks)

	19-10-2001 23:34									#97
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deleted

Last edited by pithorr on 23-10-2001 at 18:00

	19-10-2001 23:37									#98
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quote: Originally posted by VetLegion 1. As LaRusso pointed out, fighting the turks was an effort on entire balkans, this 'hungaria did it alone' is as dumb as 'poland did it alone' or any other

Excuse me, but:
1. Poland is not a Balkan state.
2. From the late 1500s to the end of 1600s Poland was fighting with Turks practically alone (in land and in Europe, Persia is the another case). Austria also did but both countries never fought together till Vienna siege in 1683. Hungary lost
Well, Hungary is an interesting civ (unique lenguage, DNA , culture, cuisine , etc.) and more worth to be included in the game than Zulus or Sioux. However Poland is once more worth of course .

	20-10-2001 03:16									#99
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quote: Though unlike OzzyKP my family managed to keep control of their castle at Edgar (Even fought of the Turks)

You men "Eger" correct? Or is Edgar the British name for it? Anyway, an incredible battle took place there in 1552 that certainly is worth mentioning. The commander of Eger Castle, Istán Dobó with only 2 thousands troops repelled the Ottoman force of 150 thousand. And why do the Poles say they fought the Turks alone?

	20-10-2001 06:15									#100
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quote: 1. Poland is not a Balkan state.

thank god!

quote: 2. During 1500s-1600s Poland was fighting with Turks practically alone (in land and in Europe, Persia is the another case). Austria also did but both countries never fought together.

you decide was it poland alone or not, ok? In the period you describe, croatian fortresses were falling one after another to the turks. in theory, austrian king should have been helping the struggle he was more in prague partying then anything else

in that period, croatia lost more then half of its territory. but we did put up a fight . we can argue that if we havent, you would have turks in krakow or some simmilar nonsence
1593, battle of Sisak was the turning point, after which turks gained no more ground (they were advancing up to then)

I dont intend to continue to explain that to you. claiming that poland fought the turks alone is ridiculous and the whole discussion is in my opinion pointless. do some reading, or something.

	21-10-2001 01:14									#101
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Seems like these Hugarians and Poles don't know what Vojna Krajina is

	22-10-2001 18:14									#102
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I was misunderstood a little bit
When I wrote Poland "fought alone" I meant "with no ally".
Sorry if I hurt your Croatian soul.
How many Croatians, Serbs, Turks etc. were fighting in Battle of Sisak?
BTW: I am really happy not to live in Yugoslavia area as well!!!

	23-10-2001 02:25									#103
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quote: Originally posted by Deathwalker I totally agree Hungary should be in the game, for there size they have managed great thing though out history. My family (Fathers Side) come from Hungary so I agree they should be in the game, Though unlike OzzyKP my family managed to keep control of their castle at Edgar (Even fought of the Turks)

I bet we put up a good fight. Our castle the Koroknavar (i think its how it is spelled) is south of Lake Balaton, i went and visited it last year. Damn Turks. It was in ruins, but still facinating to see. I found some pottery and of course lots of bricks. Our coat of arms describes the Koroknays rescuing a Hungarian princess from the Turks or something so i bet there are some good stories out there about our involvement.

	23-10-2001 12:47									#104
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Luckely for us, our castle survived as we managed to drive of the TUrks It's now pat of the national trust and the vast majority of it is still in good condition, even the tunnels under it are still there. My farther took me there when I was a child. We were even allowed to explore the tunnels because of our family defending it years ago

But I do aggree Hungary should be in the game, I dont think they gave us enough Civilization to play as

	26-10-2001 05:36									#105
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BTw.... hungary from 1102 to 1514 was not just Hungary but a Croat-Hungarian empire. And the Hungarian kings used the armies from both countries for expansion, so a claim to a single big Hungary is questionable at leat.

In that year 1102 the Hungarian King was made a king of Hungary and Croatia after the last Croatian King was left without a son, and in the following struggle the barons in favour of the Hungarian king becoming Croatian king prevailed (killing the croatian pretender Peter who tried to claim the throne the late Croatian King Zvonimir's wife was sister from the Hungarian king and therefore Hungarian king had a claim to the throne that way)

So until 1514 Croatian-Hungarian kingdom (or Hungaro -Croatian) was the actual country and the only drawback was that the capital was in Budapest, which helps the middle-ages big Hungary myth. Anyway in 200 years the Arpad hungarian bloodline dried up of rightful descendants and the Croatian barons brought in the king of Naples to be Croat-Hungarian King for example. And other nationalites were our kings as was later one of the Luxembourgh dynasty monarchs. And a few kings in between with the last big one being Matijas Hunyadi Korvin who actually conquered Wien and made it the new capital of the kingdom.

Anyway Turks came and we both fought lost the king and chose the Habsburg Monarch to be our King (which some of them were before that point anyway) which they stayed this time around until WW1 and Croatia was in the war more or less for the next 500 years with the Turks which weakened the country considerably, especially after the failed attempt by the Croatian barons in 18 th century to overthrow the Habsburg monarch.

As the high point in Hungarian history is the year 1867/68 when you actually got the Habsburghs into a corner and made them share the power with Hungarian parliament. At that point Croatia suffered immensly with the 1868 deal, where we were made to make an very infavourable deal with the Hungarians (since Croats helped the crown in 1848 to defeat the first Hungarian revolution) and lost a lot of our independance within the monarchy. So you Hungarians can praise that period as your Golden Age that you earned on the backs of others (well like everyone else, but they acknowledge that, so should you) which was late 19th and early 20th century. However after WW1 I guess that Hungary was quite severely cut down that even all the hungarians did not get live in Hungary, but ratehr parts were given to the Yugoslavian crown and Romania. But thats history too.

So I would find it not so accurate to have a Hungarian Civ on purely civilization terms but well this is only a game afterall.

Last edited by OneFootInTheGrave on 26-10-2001 at 14:16

	27-10-2001 00:39									#106
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To a certain extent I agree with what OneFootintheGrave said. However back then, I seriously doubt it was refered to as "Hungarian-Croat Empire". For one thing, it was a Kingdom established by Stephen I and sanctioned by the pope. Before the 1800s, rulers of Europe could give a crap about nationality and nationalism, as Latin was the official language of every country and the church was the most important aspect of life. Calling the country a Hungarian-Croat empire is taking. a modern and patriotic look at history. Besides, Hungarian nobles gave the Hungarian crown to the Hapsburgs after Mohács, similar to the Croats giving their crown to the Hungarian king. However, history does not refer to the Austrian empire as being the "Austro-Hungarian Empire" at this point just because they share the same ruler. It was a formal and peaceful annexation. The Austrian Empire didn't become the Austro-Hungarian empire until compromises were made for the Hungarians to have an independent self governing body. This never happened for the Croatians. However, Croatians were the only people who lived in historic Hungary who actually had their own country before Hungary was established, while Hungarian nobles governed across the whole country, including parts that today are under foreign occupation, Croatian nobles governed over most of modern day Croatia because their people were established before they became a part of Hungary, and Hungarians never settled there. Another "interesting" point, according to censuses in the 1900s, Hungarian communities, (whether they made up the majority or minority of the region) existed throughout the entire country, including the parts taken by Czechoslovakia, Serbia and Romania, but there were practically none in Croatia...

	29-10-2001 10:38									#107
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quote: Originally posted by MagyarCrusader You men "Eger" correct? Or is Edgar the British name for it? Anyway, an incredible battle took place there in 1552 that certainly is worth mentioning. The commander of Eger Castle, Istán Dobó with only 2 thousands troops repelled the Ottoman force of 150 thousand. And why do the Poles say they fought the Turks alone?

Edgar is the English spelling for the name Eger. You can find numerious examples of where people have changed historical names to fit the local dialect.

	29-10-2001 13:49									#108
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Sorry you’re right it's Egar not Edgar. My ancestor was Istán Dobó, My name's Jason Dobó. I've even been to the castle and the caretaker took us on a tour though the unopened tunnels and rooms within the castle. Though that was some years ago.

Sorry forgot one thing, the Magyars (Hungary) say they are desended from the Huns and look what they achieved. So they should be in the game.

Last edited by Deathwalker on 29-10-2001 at 14:15

	30-10-2001 08:36									#109
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Oh man! That's awesome!