04-10-2001 08:52									#1
	Why Hungary SHOULD be included in the expansion pack. Support Apolyton buy from Amazon

Unfortunatly I don't have time to make a solid case for my heritage but I'll try to give a solid nudge.

The Hungarians don't get enough credit in history. The Magyars scoured France, they pilliaged Italy, they invaded Germany. Look in any maps from 1000 AD onward, the Hungarians often had the largest empire in Europe. At its peak Hungary (not Austro-Hungary) was as big as France and England. The rest of Europe better be damn glad Hungary fought off the Turks and stopped their spread. Downside is Hungary lost most of its kingdom to the Turks (my families castle included, grrr.)

Hungarians kick major ass throughout history, they revolted and won an equal split ruling the Austrian empire. They were one of the few countries under the Soviet Boot that attempted to revolt. And currently they are one of the fastest growing former Warsaw Pact countries. I could go on, but Hungary has been a major world power that I feel has been unduly neglected.

	04-10-2001 09:38									#2
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Here is some more evidence to help my case:

Check out this map. Hungary is deffinatly one of the big players. This isn't a flash in the pan deal either, check out 1100 or 1200 or 1500 or whatever you wish. We had this period wrapped up. Don't forget the Austrian-HUNGARIAN empire either. The capitol was in Budapest.

http://www.euratlas.com/big/big1400.htm

Third subway system in the world was built in Budapest.

New York, London, Budapest. Oh yea...

Lets see a few Hungarians in my World Almanac who have enriched world culture and science:

Szilard- a guy who worked on the Manhattan Project
Von Neumann- originated game theory, basic design for modern computers
Ferenc Molnar- wrote Liliom, The Guardsman, The Swan
Bela Bartok- Concerto for Orchestra, The Miraculous Mandarin
Zoltan Kodaly- Hary Janos, Psalmus Hungaricus
Franz LISZT- 20 Hungarian Rhapsodies
Franz Lehar- Merry Widow

2 Hungarians won Nobel Prizes

I believe I have heard before that Hugarians invented the Helicopter, fountain pen, possibly computer among others.

And as for Olympics Hungarians are a force far exceeding the size and might of their nation right now. Compeating against huge powers like the USSR and USA, Hungary always places very respectibly. 12th overall in 1996 olympics.

Check out http://www.mit.edu/~elliot/olympics/results.html Hungary is 5th when total medals are scaled based on population.

Most telling of all is the ALL TIME OLYMPIC MEDAL COUNT. From 1896 to 2000 ALL the nations and ALL the medals were tallied up and guess what? Hungary Placed EIGHTH. EIGHTH!!!! That's incredible with all the nations on this planet, Hungary placed 8th!


1. USA 871 659 586 2116
2. USSR (1952-88) 395 319 296 1010
3. Great Britain 180 233 225 638
4. France 188 193 217 598
5. Italy 179 143 157 479
6. Sweden 136 156 177 469
7. East Germany (1968-88) 159 150 136 445
8. Hungary 150 135 158 443
9. Germany (1896-64,92-) 138 138 160 436
10. Australia 102 110 138 350
11. West Germany (1968-88) 77 104 120 301
12. Finland 101 81 114 296
13. Japan 97 97 102 296
14. Romania 74 83 108 265
15. Poland 56 72 113 241
16. Canada 51 81 98 230

http://www.olympicwebsite.com/medalcount.htm

Hungary is certainly deserving of a spot, so please give the Magyar/Hungarians your votes!!!!

	04-10-2001 10:23									#3
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I won't dispute some of what you wrote, but as for the Olypmics, I distrust any country that was a vassal state of the Communist USSR in the Olympics. Their athletes were more juiced up than Minute Maid. You also forgot to add the two largest influences of Hungary upon American culture: the Gabor sisters. Ava and Zsa Zsa "Cop Slapper" Gabor.

	04-10-2001 12:23									#4
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Olympic medals are all well and good, but hardly a reason for justifiying a civilization.

However, if the mongols are in, I don't see why the huns should not be either. But that should be IT for central asian tribes. The ancient huns didn't build cities, really...until settling in present day Hungary of course

	04-10-2001 14:40									#5
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Excuse me, but I was (and still am) under the impression that the Huns are not the ancestors of modern Hungarian. The Magyar are a completely different tribe than the Huns...


....oh, anyway... on with the "Why the XXXX should be in Civ expansion pack" threads... I am going to make one of my own... soon...

	04-10-2001 19:44									#6
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Yea, the Huns really don't have anything to do with Hungary, people just mistakenly grouped the Magyars with the Huns.

Perhaps I put too much in there on the Olympics but Hungary is a great nation and people for many reasons. Look at the map I put a link for, from about 1000 till 1500 or 1600 Hungary was one of the largest nations in Europe. As big and as powerful as France or England. The Hungarians were a big player in the Crusades too, I'm not sure but I think they had their own crusade in addition to participating in the others.

Then the Ottoman empire pushed into Europe and while the rest of the continent was minding their own business the feared Magyar troops were fighting back the Turks. Who knows, if the Hungarians hadn't slowed them down and fought them off Europe may have been Muslim now. While France and England were sitting pretty Hungary was saving their asses and loosing all its power in the process.

Of course after decades of fighting off the Turks Hungary was mostly carved up and weakened so the previously weak Austrians were able to get control over Hungary. This lasted for a bit but then the proud Hungarians revolted and demanded an equal say and rather than fight a civil war the Austrians gave in and we got the Austro-Hungarian empire.

Heck even while under the Soviet boot the Hungarians fought back and had a revolution against the communists.

So think very successful and feared barbaric tribes that attacked and pilliaged all of Europe who didn't just fade away and die out like the Mongols or Huns, the Magyars created a very powerful kingdom and are still around 1500 years later. MUCH more of a world player than the Celts or Huns or Carthaginians or any other contenders are.

Atilla the Hun just had a better PR agent, he paled compared to the long lasting effect of the Magyars/Hungarians.

	04-10-2001 20:16									#7
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Look at the Roman Empire on that map!
And hey, lets not forget Semmelweis, he has no less than 3 streets named after him in Budapest alone!

	04-10-2001 22:01									#8
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quote: Originally posted by OzzyKP Yea, the Huns really don't have anything to do with Hungary, people just mistakenly grouped the Magyars with the Huns.

Hence the wink

	05-10-2001 05:11									#9
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I just wanted to mention that perhaps the most compelling reason to add the magyars is that they possess an almost unique linguistic group. It is a part of the Uralic family (i believe), the only two other at all significant memebers being finnish and estonian. Hungary may not have had a particularly sweeping effect on the history of humanity, but, if searching for a unique culture, part of both central asia and europe (and someone to put below the russians) the magyars are certainly an excellent choice. So come on.

	05-10-2001 07:29									#10
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OzzyKP - Please don't take it personally but I heard enough about "We stopped the turks while the Occident built cathedrals" from romanians historians.

Hungary played an important role in history, but in the game are just 16 (?) civs and not in the order of importance in history.

There are a lot of african and asian civs not included.

This is just a game

	05-10-2001 07:43									#11
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OzzyKP - that link you gave is great! A lot of historical maps! If you can give me more links like that I would apreciate.

As a side note I always wander how cam the Dacs Kingdom has the same size and shape like the Roman Dacia. I mean the legions conquered the country and stoped at the border?

	10-10-2001 01:27									#12
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Got the PM

Ozzy did a nice job of a brief summary. I've got a good page for famous Hungarians:

http://www.hungary.org/users/hipcat/famous.htm

The ones that would probably relate to civ3 most are the military and scientific ones:

http://www.hungary.org/users/hipcat...andmilitary.htm
http://www.hungary.org/users/hipcat...mathandtech.htm

Some famous military magyars-
János Hunyadi- prehaps the best Medeival tactician europe ever saw. Who else can take an army 5 times smaller than the army of the largest empire at the time (Ottoman) and completely destroy it in a single battle? Siege of Belgrade. Catholic Church bells around the world have forever since rang at noon to celebrate this victory!

Col. Michael de Kováts - Father of the US Cavalry

Matthias Corvinus- The "Renaissance" King. Conquered the Holy Roman Empire, outstanding statesman and patron of the arts. He spread the Renassiance to Eastern Europe. Unfortunately, central Hungary was conquered 30 years after his death.

And of course there are Attila, Arpad, and St Stephen. And the all famous Hussar unit? The Hussars were the most effective cavalry unit the world saw during the age of the rifle.

You could even throw Hungary into the game for politically correct reasons. Hungarians proportionally are the largest minority in europe. Only 2/3 of Hungarians live in the present day political borders of Hungary. Solid Hungary communities still exist in Transylvania (which compirses more than half of modern Romania), Slovakia, and Vojvodina, despite 80 years of unchecked ethnic cleansing! (If you doubt me, read carefully how Romanians such as Mihai here speak regarding Hungarians and our land).

Hungary has been one of the most important influences in the Balkans, which even to this day is one of europe's most critical points. And now that Hungary is part of NATO and has millions of Hungarians living abroad in the most unfriendly region in the world for minorities, it's role in the future will be very important.

To Mihai, who I am certain will take offense to this post (don't blame him, he lives in the Balkans)

quote: Please don't take it personally but I heard enough about "We stopped the turks while the Occident built cathedrals" from romanians historians.

Romanians say many things, like for example, they have more linkage to Rome than Italians themselves, or the French, Spanish, or Portuguese. Even the world Transylvania is derived from the latin word Ardeal, which in turn was derived from Erdély, the proper name. Archeological evidence shows the Vlachs in the souther Balkans around Greece and Albania before 1000AD but that isn't important to you either. Archeological/historical evidence shows major Vlach migrations into Transylvania during the 14th, 15th centuries to avoid the Ottomans, and of course the 20th century for your crusade against the "mongols". My family lived in Arad before 1920 when all of a sudden, a people who lived there for over 1000 years were judged as unworthy to live in their homes by the heroic victors of the great war... Don't worry, conflict between the 2 countries is not yet solved, and your fascist state will either have to accept the truth and realize that Transylvania does not exist soley for Wallachia and Vlach nationalism, or your must forfeit your occupation of foreign lands. After all, Romania isn't getting into NATO without Hungary's approval.

	10-10-2001 01:40									#13
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quote: Originally posted by MagyarCrusader Got the PM Some famous military magyars- János Hunyadi- prehaps the best Medeival tactician europe ever saw. Who else can take an army 5 times smaller than the army of the largest empire at the time (Ottoman) and completely destroy it in a single battle?

Blas de Lezo and 400 Spaniards defeated 6000 Englishmen when the latter attaked Cartagena de Indias, the main Spanish port in the Caribbean. It was 1741 I believe. (Jenkins' Ear War).

(I was just teasing you. Hunyadi was a brave man and deserves all credit)

	10-10-2001 03:08									#14
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quote: Blas de Lezo and 400 Spaniards defeated 6000 Englishmen when the latter attaked Cartagena de Indias, the main Spanish port in the Caribbean. It was 1741 I believe. (Jenkins' Ear War).

Well, thats' because Lezo was fighting against the English. j/k

There were other incredible battle fought by the Hungarians against Turks during the occupation. Like the first Siege of Eger. Or the Battle/Siege of Koszeg, Hungarian army of 1000 peasants held out a month against the Ottoman's force around 100,000 heading towards Vienna, forcing the Sultan to abandon his campaign to take Vienna, sometime around 1530. Although the senior officer there wasn't Hunyadi, it was some Captain from Croatia.

	10-10-2001 08:50									#15
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quote: Originally posted by MagyarCrusader To Mihai, who I am certain will take offense to this post (don't blame him, he lives in the Balkans)

I don't offend too easy, I just don't like fanatics (romanians, hungarians, jews, arabs, americans or whatever). I am afraid that you are a little to extremist regarding history.

quote: Originally posted by MagyarCrusader If you doubt me, read carefully how Romanians such as Mihai here speak regarding Hungarians and our land.

I don't intended to say that everything I said is pure true, I might be wrong. But you can be sure that in case I am wrong is because I am misinformed and not because I am 'blind' to reason.
Just one example : János Hunyadi (hungarian sp/Iancu de Hunedoara - romanian sp) and Matthias Corvinus (hungarian sp/Matei Corvinul - romanian sp). Romanians historians considers them as romanians and they are reprezented as such in our history books. Personally I think that even they might be of romanian origin, they are more liked to hungarian history. I am not sure about Iancu de Hunedoara but certanly Matias didn't consider himself romanian.

quote: Originally posted by MagyarCrusader Even the world Transylvania is derived from the latin word Ardeal, which in turn was derived from Erdély, the proper name.

This is the fanatism I was talking about. Ovious you don't know latin at all : transylvania = trans + silva = over the forest

quote: Originally posted by MagyarCrusader Archeological evidence shows the Vlachs in the souther Balkans around Greece and Albania before 1000AD but that isn't important to you either. Archeological/historical evidence shows major Vlach migrations into Transylvania during the 14th, 15th centuries to avoid the Ottomans, and of course the 20th century for your crusade against the "mongols".

As I said with other occasion too, I just don't belive in the theory of completly emply teritory. Not even Sahara isn't empty of population.

quote: Originally posted by MagyarCrusader My family lived in Arad before 1920 when all of a sudden, a people who lived there for over 1000 years were judged as unworthy to live in their homes by the heroic victors of the great war...

So you understand how vlachs felt when hungarians came in IX century

quote: Originally posted by MagyarCrusader Don't worry, conflict between the 2 countries is not yet solved, and your fascist state will either have to accept the truth and realize that Transylvania does not exist soley for Wallachia and Vlach nationalism, or your must forfeit your occupation of foreign lands. After all, Romania isn't getting into NATO without Hungary's approval.

If you think that NATO will support a war between Romania and Hungary, man you are really gone away!

If you want to continue this part of discusion I suggest to stard a thread on OT. It really has little to do with Civ3.
I just couldn't help myself not to reply

	10-10-2001 09:35									#16
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"Third subway system in the world was built in Budapest.

New York, London, Budapest. Oh yea..."

-Somehow I doubt that, do you have some dates?

"Lets see a few Hungarians in my World Almanac who have enriched world culture and science:"

-You can find that many from any country, I'm sure.

'I believe I have heard before that Hugarians invented the Helicopter, fountain pen, possibly computer among others."

-I somehow doubt the computer.

"Most telling of all is the ALL TIME OLYMPIC MEDAL COUNT. From 1896 to 2000 ALL the nations and ALL the medals were tallied up and guess what? Hungary Placed EIGHTH. EIGHTH!!!! That's incredible with all the nations on this planet, Hungary placed 8th!"

-And that means what in terms of civ?

"Look at the map I put a link for, from about 1000 till 1500 or 1600 Hungary was one of the largest nations in Europe. As big and as powerful as France or England. The Hungarians were a big player in the Crusades too, I'm not sure but I think they had their own crusade in addition to participating in the others."

-So, Poland and Lithuania were large at one time too, as was Sweden. Canada is very big right now... what a world power we are

"Who knows, if the Hungarians hadn't slowed them down and fought them off Europe may have been Muslim now. While France and England were sitting pretty Hungary was saving their asses and loosing all its power in the process."

-France kicked their Muslim ***es at Tours, and after that only Spain really had to fight them, Hungary never successfully drove them back enough to maintain its power.

'Heck even while under the Soviet boot the Hungarians fought back and had a revolution against the communists."

-So did the Czechs... and both were mercilessly crushed. Hardly a world power.

"MUCH more of a world player than the Celts or Huns or Carthaginians or any other contenders are."

-Ooh.. a country of 8 million people, still around, but rather FuNLesS if you ask me.

"I just wanted to mention that perhaps the most compelling reason to add the magyars is that they possess an almost unique linguistic group. It is a part of the Uralic family (i believe), the only two other at all significant memebers being finnish and estonian. Hungary may not have had a particularly sweeping effect on the history of humanity, but, if searching for a unique culture, part of both central asia and europe (and someone to put below the russians) the magyars are certainly an excellent choice. So come on."

-So do a whole lot of native tribes elsewhere.

'You could even throw Hungary into the game for politically correct reasons. Hungarians proportionally are the largest minority in europe. Only 2/3 of Hungarians live in the present day political borders of Hungary"

-Yeah, not too hard when you have a country of 8 million people. There are more Romanians in Moldova and the Ukraine then there are Hungarians in all of Europe outside Hungary.

"(If you doubt me, read carefully how Romanians such as Mihai here speak regarding Hungarians and our land)."

-Some of us have grandparents who lived through the Hungarian ethnic cleansing of Transilvania in the 40s. Even as we speak, Marko Bella and his buddies in Budapest are plotting against the sovereignty of Romania.

"Hungary has been one of the most important influences in the Balkans, which even to this day is one of europe's most critical points. And now that Hungary is part of NATO and has millions of Hungarians living abroad in the most unfriendly region in the world for minorities, it's role in the future will be very important."

-If it weren't for NATO, I suspect it would take the Romanian army about 1 month to overrun Hungary.

"Even the world Transylvania is derived from the latin word Ardeal, which in turn was derived from Erdély, the proper name."

-My God, you aren't supposed to make it this easy. Transylvania comes from the Latin, Ardeal is the alternative Romanian name and comes from Erdély, and they are in no way related. Needless to say I preffer Transilvania.

"My family lived in Arad before 1920 when all of a sudden, a people who lived there for over 1000 years were judged as unworthy to live in their homes by the heroic victors of the great war..."

-Good for you, it took us that long to get the land back, but we did finally. Transilvania was the heart of the Dacian kingdom, and the only reason the capital of Romania is Bucharest, is because we lost Transilvania to the Magyars for so long.

"Don't worry, conflict between the 2 countries is not yet solved, and your fascist state will either have to accept the truth and realize that Transylvania does not exist soley for Wallachia and Vlach nationalism, or your must forfeit your occupation of foreign lands. After all, Romania isn't getting into NATO without Hungary's approval."

-Something tells me Hungary doesn't have that much of a say in things. And I hardly believe nations like France would support it if it were to launch an offensive war of agression.

If I were you I would stop reading Hungarian versions of history, and look for 3rd party sources.

	10-10-2001 09:59									#17
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"Hunyadi is first mentioned, probably as a small child, in the diplomas by which King Sigismund transferred possessions of Hunyad castle (now at Hunedoara, Rom.) to one of his knights, Woyk (or Vajk), who was Hunyadi's father. János was of Walachian (a region now in Romania) ancestry."

-A nice quote from Encyclopedia Britannica... nice no

	10-10-2001 10:30									#18
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*sigh

You can't really judge a country based on the opinion of it's enemies. Who in their right mind would take the national socialist view of the jewish ethnicity and hold it as fact? Romania has one goal: The colonization of Transylvania and the annihilation of Magyars from Greater Romania. Just look at the historic trends and the general attitude of it's people. If anyone actually does hold stock in the Daco-Roman continuity theory and believes Hungarians do not deserve the right to live in their own land, I'd gladly debate them but I will not waste my time with a Vlach. I'll admit it, I have a deep hatred for them, at least their governing system which has been very effective in blinding its people from seeing past their own bullshit. Ceausescu made damn well sure of that. For you see, the main problem is not whether their continuity theory is correct or not, they are very racist and hate Hungarians, believing Hungarians have no right to be in Transylvania. I mean, look at Victor Galis' response! (he's Romanian) If this were not true, Wilson's point of self determination would have been upheld after WW1. The only place it was upheld was Sopron, and they voted to remain Hungarian. Hungary agreed to surrender on terms of self determination, but lost 3/4 of its land with no plebescites. Romanian nationalism is extremely dangerous to our cultures, as the Sekler Hungarians are a distinct group of Hungarians indeginous to Transylvania, yet their counties which are solid Magyar are heavily targeted by Romanian colonists for the sake of ethnic cleansing. It's sad that most people don't know about this and about the danger of extinction a human culture faces, yet instead people are concerned about saving endangered spotted beetles in the most remote region of Brazil... I guess the real question is, why do Romanians hate us so much? The Romanians of Transylvania coexisted peacefully with Hungarians without fear of ethnic cleansing for centuries, why did it all have to change? The good news is we will always have hope. If Romania can unjustifiably break a country with the swing of a pen, then even if their ethnic cleansing campaign is successful there is always the possibility that the tables will turn, and we'll do the same thing right back at ya!

	10-10-2001 10:48									#19
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I'm sorry, this here was just sheer ignorance and I couldn't take the chance of an uneducated individual reading it and swallowing it:

quote: "Hunyadi is first mentioned, probably as a small child, in the diplomas by which King Sigismund transferred possessions of Hunyad castle (now at Hunedoara, Rom.) to one of his knights, Woyk (or Vajk), who was Hunyadi's father. János was of Walachian (a region now in Romania) ancestry." -A nice quote from Encyclopedia Britannica... nice no

First off, the intent of this quote here to try and take one of Hungary's most beloved heroes and destroy his image in an attempt to crush the Hungarian spirit. It's funny that Romanians and prehaps this version of the encyclopedia Britannica seem to think Hunyadi was Romanian, but János himself considered himself Hungarian. He had called himself Hungarian, had a Hungarian name, was Catholic not Orthodox, worked to save Hungary, and raised his children as Hungarians. Whether he was genetically 100% or not isn't important, after all I'm only 50% yet I consider myself Hungarian. I know all Romanians call the Hunyadis Romanian because like Nazi racists, they believe their genes are superior and since this man accomplished great deeds, it must have been because he had some Wallachian genes in him. In Romania, they do not allow any other view other than their fascist interpretation of history. The statue of the great king, Matthias Corvinus, that resides in the heart of Transylvania, was defaced because it said "Hungarian" on it. What were the French thinking when they put intolerant racists in power of one of the most ethnically diverse lands in Europe?

It's bad enough they stole our country, erased our people, but now they are trying to destroy our history. If anyone has questions I could answer more in detail, but I don't have time right now to dive more into specifics and I'm certainly not going to get into a flame war with a Vlach. History is written by the winners so they have no use for the truth, but it is there none the less!

	10-10-2001 12:31									#20
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well, typing from budapest, all i have to say is:

NO WAY!

no magyars in the expansion pack! nice little country, but its impact on history is extremely disproportioned in the eyes of the local populace. stopping the turks BS, as mihai pointed out, is a commonplace in the whole of balkans....

if we get a magyar civilization, it shall have a minor wonder of 'trianon' that would allow everyone in the civ to spend hours at the cafe table moaning about glorious past and magyars living abroad. 'trianon' minor wonder should also add to political stability, as it would provide a ready topic for many political parties without having to seriously meddle into politics.

	10-10-2001 12:58									#21
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Stop this eastern european/balkan/slavic infighting! Very unwise.

What's funny here is that both the polish and the hungarians want the huzar as their unique unit.

	10-10-2001 13:03									#22
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quote: Originally posted by Be Quicker Stop this eastern european/balkan/slavic infighting! Very unwise. What's funny here is that both the polish and the hungarians want the huzar as their unique unit.

which goes to show....

	10-10-2001 13:12									#23
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...and as many of you might actually know, the huzar is a Byzantine invention. The word derives from the term "Hosarioi" (Greek ×ůóÜńéďé) from the word "hosia" (÷ůóéÜ) which means (the latter) hide/sneak/ambush - a term used to describe an elite cavalary group that could fight mounted or not and were especially used in ambushes.

So, here you go

Damned, I couldn't resist posing as a smartass

	10-10-2001 17:46									#24
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Yet another reason for including Hungary (beside our obviously superior culture ) would be ethnic diversity. We have the Iroquois in as an indiginous population of North America, the Aztecs for Latin America and so on. Where is the Indigenous population of Europe, though? Recent archaeological evidence shows that the indigenous population of central/northern/eastern europe and north-western asia was in fact Finno-Ugric, and that the "Finnish Invasion" never actually took place. And what is the most important finno-ugric empire? Why the hungarians, originally located at the eastern edge of the relevant area but now smack in the middle of it. Only the Celts have an equally strong claim in this regard, and they never even appraoched Hungary's stature.

	10-10-2001 19:23									#25
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snapcase, i thought you were a swedish....are you actually a hungarian?

	10-10-2001 19:54									#26
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"Romania has one goal: The colonization of Transylvania and the annihilation of Magyars from Greater Romania."

-Yes, we are trying to colonize a region of our country that is 80% Romanian

"Just look at the historic trends and the general attitude of it's people. If anyone actually does hold stock in the Daco-Roman continuity theory and believes Hungarians do not deserve the right to live in their own land, I'd gladly debate them but I will not waste my time with a Vlach."

-Why don't you look at your own history and Hungarian imperialism. My God, if Romania were really trying to be imperialistic, do you honestly think Moldova would still be independent? Would we not have elected Vadim and his cronies?

"If this were not true, Wilson's point of self determination would have been upheld after WW1. The only place it was upheld was Sopron, and they voted to remain Hungarian. Hungary agreed to surrender on terms of self determination, but lost 3/4 of its land with no plebescites. Romanian nationalism is extremely dangerous to our cultures, as the Sekler Hungarians are a distinct group of Hungarians indeginous to Transylvania, yet their counties which are solid Magyar are heavily targeted by Romanian colonists for the sake of ethnic cleansing."

-I saw a map of what the Romanian government meant by Greater Romania after WWI, you can be assured, we didn't come close to getting it. Let's put it this way... Our borders would have had nice natural boundaries, like Rivers.

"I guess the real question is, why do Romanians hate us so much?"

-Because of your sinister plots to take Transilvania.

"The Romanians of Transylvania coexisted peacefully with Hungarians without fear of ethnic cleansing for centuries, why did it all have to change?"

-So long as they kept quiet and obedient to their overlords. We remember the harshness with which you crushed revolts.

Time for me to go to class... I'll respond to the rest later. Or maybe Mihai will do it, he's better informed. I'm really doubly removed from this, once because my mother moved to Bucharest I was born, and secondly because I'm in America now. I don't hate all Hungarians, I certainly don't hate my calculus professor (He speaks German, so he's cool), but I hate the nationalist Hungarian leadership, and fanatics like you.

	11-10-2001 00:50									#27
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quote: -Yes, we are trying to colonize a region of our country that is 80% Romanian

Of course its 80% now. We have a word for that, it's called GENOCIDE! According to the Austro-Hungarian census of the empire in 1910, around 45% of Transylvania was Vlach, 38% Magyar, and the rest were mostly Saxon and Roma. Another interesting fact, the Saxons of Siegenburg (German word for Transylvania) existed and thrived for centuries since Stephen invited them to help develope the uninhabbited land, and yet they have quickly disappeared since Romanians troops moved in. Tell me, how did an entire community of a hundred thousand people vanish?

quote: I saw a map of what the Romanian government meant by Greater Romania after WWI, you can be assured, we didn't come close to getting it. Let's put it this way... Our borders would have had nice natural boundaries, like Rivers.

Still doesn't excuse your country from your constant disregard for basic human rights of the non-aryan Wallachian race. Why didn't you let the people chose their government and nationality instead of sending armies to attack a country that already laid down arms!!!

quote: Why don't you look at your own history and Hungarian imperialism.

Every country has trample on another's rights as some point or another in history, but we always look to avoid such situations and make amends for mistakes. The difference is Romania cares not for repentance and it's citizens that weren't born with Wallachian genes. I am not surprised by your attitude Victor, for even Vlach i've encountered is programed with the same attitude. You despise the Hungarian presence in Transylvania and you have no intention to make any concessions to for a peaceful coexistance. Telling families who have lived in the same communities for generations that suddenly they do not belong there, trampling on their rights, feeding them lies, and trying to undermine any patrotism to their culture they may have, are not healthy approaches to establish unity within a diverse land, or peaceful relations with a wary neighbor.
When I look at the Kingdom of Hungary, I can see to things. I can see a tolerant and peaceful kingdom culturally rich from it's diverese people, or I can see a failed experiment in an attempt to unify people who have no desire for peaceful coexistance ending in betrayal and murder. I try to stick with the former, for the Transylvania troubles are only a recent problem in the grand scheme of time. There were no conflicts until the time of extreme nationalism in Europe during the 1800s, when Romanian imperialists "discovered" the Daco-Roman continuity theory and agitated their people against us. As for Hungarians imperialism, here's a "nice little quote":

quote: Make the strangers welcome in this land, let them keep their languages and customs, for weak and fragile is the realm which is based on a single language or on a single set of customs.

St. Stephen, founder of the Kingdom of Hungary in a letter to his son St. Emeric, 1036 A.D..

quote: I don't hate all Hungarians, I certainly don't hate my calculus professor (He speaks German, so he's cool), but I hate the nationalist Hungarian leadership, and fanatics like you.

I'm a fanatic for loving my people and for condeming genocide? Glad to know I rank up their with Churchill, Martin Luther King Jr, and Ghandi. But if you seriously think I'm a fanatic, you better take a trip to Hungary and get the input of "real" Hungarians. The most deadly soldier is the soldier that isn't afraid to die. Many Hungarians feel they are already dead, and we have your chauvinistic imperialist racist xenophobic culture to thank, and they will be targeted. Communism is gone, so a new generation is arising without being victimized by Soviet propaganda. They are allowed free speech and thought and they are becoming increasingly aware of your treacherous past.

	11-10-2001 01:21									#28
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quote: This is the fanatism I was talking about. Ovious you don't know latin at all : transylvania = trans + silva = over the forest

Take a wild guess what Erdély means. The term that was used first!

quote: So you understand how vlachs felt when hungarians came in IX century

What Vlachs. History shows Huns, Avars, Szeklers and Bulgars. Romania didn't have a country untill the 1800s. Assuming Vlachs were there, they were forced from their homes. That's why there was such a solid Romanian community there during the Austro-Hungarian empire.

quote: If you think that NATO will support a war between Romania and Hungary, man you are really gone away!

Read my quote man! I said Romania will not get INTO NATO. I know your country wants to but it can't if Hungary vetos it. Western Europe is starting to turn against your harsh policies as well. Ever heard of the Helnsiki Watch?

Also Mihai, I thank you for respecting the fact that Matthias is Hungarian. By desktop image is of the defaced statue in Kolozsvár. It really makes me mad when people try to steal our heros away from us.

BTW, redagrding Hussars.
Almost any encyclopedia will tell you János Hunyadi developed the Hussars in the 1400s. Many of his victories over the Turks invloved surprise flanking manuever with light cavalry that would quickly strike out of nowhere then disappear. The Polish may claim the Hussar as theirs because of István Báthori, a Hungarian from Transylvania who became the King of Poland for 10 years. His armies used the winged Hussars and he scored some spectacular vicotires against the Russian empire. Báthori's armies included Transylvanians which means yes, Hungarians and Romanians did fight side to side. It was because of his victories that the rest of the world saw how usefull Hussars were, and very soon the French, Prussians and Austrians started building their own Hussar units, often drawing from Hungarian Hussar veterans from the Turkish wars to train their units and fight as mercenaries.

Snapcase-
Can you prehaps provide some internet sources on what you say? It sounds very interesting and I'd like to read more into it. Thanks.

	11-10-2001 01:27									#29
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"First off, the intent of this quote here to try and take one of Hungary's most beloved heroes and destroy his image in an attempt to crush the Hungarian spirit. It's funny that Romanians and prehaps this version of the encyclopedia Britannica seem to think Hunyadi was Romanian, but János himself considered himself Hungarian. He had called himself Hungarian, had a Hungarian name, was Catholic not Orthodox, worked to save Hungary, and raised his children as Hungarians"

-If you were an oppressed minority in a repressive totalitarian state, would you not conform?

"What were the French thinking when they put intolerant racists in power of one of the most ethnically diverse lands in Europe?"

-The country is about 91-92% Romanian. There are many countries with larger minorities than that.

"Stop this eastern european/balkan/slavic infighting! Very unwise."

-Who's slavic here?

"Of course its 80% now. We have a word for that, it's called GENOCIDE!"

-No, Genocide involves killing people. Before WWII there was even a major University in the Hungarian language in Cluj. Yeah, quite genocidal. You will find that the Hungarians weren't as kind in the early forties. I've heard the horror stories.

"Another interesting fact, the Saxons of Siegenburg (German word for Transylvania) existed and thrived for centuries since Stephen invited them to help develope the uninhabbited land, and yet they have quickly disappeared since Romanians troops moved in. Tell me, how did an entire community of a hundred thousand people vanish? "

-They can leave, like a lot of them did after communism fell. Heck, my mother's aunt managed to prove she had enough Germanic heritage to please German Immigration, and now resides in Germany with her family. It'd be a stretch, but I could probably pull off the same manner of thing, now that they're in Germany. If you think that they were exterminated, then how did I spend a summer in the late 80s living in a German-speaking village in Romania? (Sure there weren't a lot of them, but you'd think if there was ethnic cleansing going on, then that wouldn't have been so safe, no?)

"Why didn't you let the people chose their government and nationality instead of sending armies to attack a country that already laid down arms!!!"

-Because they were plotting to invade Transilvania, and they were communists.

". You despise the Hungarian presence in Transylvania and you have no intention to make any concessions to for a peaceful coexistance."

-There seems to be this funny coincidence. Many Romanians and Hungarians hate gypsies, many Romanians hate Hungarians, not very many Romanians hate other peoples... funny no?

"Telling families who have lived in the same communities for generations that suddenly they do not belong there, trampling on their rights, feeding them lies, and trying to undermine any patrotism to their culture they may have, are not healthy approaches to establish unity within a diverse land, or peaceful relations with a wary neighbor."

-Then why did Hungary do it in the forties? And we were supposed to be allied at the time!

"St. Stephen, founder of the Kingdom of Hungary in a letter to his son St. Emeric, 1036 A.D.."

-And if they did anything obey that it would be nice.

"I'm a fanatic for loving my people and for condeming genocide?"

-You spew constant hatred at Romania. Tell me, have you been to Transilvania? Or have you been in the US all your life. You say your family left Arad in the 1920s, have you any rational basis for any comments after that?

"Many Hungarians feel they are already dead, and we have your chauvinistic imperialist racist xenophobic culture to thank, and they will be targeted. Communism is gone, so a new generation is arising without being victimized by Soviet propaganda. They are allowed free speech and thought and they are becoming increasingly aware of your treacherous past."

-You mean are becoming increasingly nationalistic, and plotting to invade Transilvania. You still haven't said anything about my revelations that the government in Budapest is plotting to take over Transilvania.

	11-10-2001 01:31									#30
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"Take a wild guess what Erdély means. The term that was used first!"

-Who was there to speak that language in Roman times?

"By desktop image is of the defaced statue in Kolozsvár."

-And you claim not to be a fanatic. That would be like me having a picture of the flag of Greater Hungary that flies over the Hungarian consulate in Cluj. It is a grave affront, an a sign of things you will attempt on the future, I can't believe Funar hasn't gotten it down yet.